Bland & Flavorless Mountainous 15er - Mafia Winnered

Forum Games Completed
,
#2001

how about this, I’m happy to offer you a deal

I will stop discrediting your reads solely on the basis of coming from you (not for other reasons, like I can still discredit them for having bad arguments) for the rest of the game

in exchange, if we’re both villagers, you have to never argue that your reads are inherently better than other people’s, or accuse people of not listening to you just because of who you are, or ignore people who raise valid reasons to disagree with you, or act like you have a specially unusually good intuition/gut, in all future games where you are town

(under forum rules this is completely unenforceable, but you can still agree to do it – it’s just not meaningfully binding in any sense)

do we have an agreement? :slight_smile:

#2002

My gamestate logic tells me there’s a lot of V on V violence and wolves have just been killing the largely consensus townreads that have taken active strides to stop that violence.

2 Likes
#2003

Hi Vulgard hi Marl would you two be interested in hard carrying us because I’m extremely sleepy and can’t think :( Thanks for your support if either of you are wolves I will explode. Bye :frogge:

#2004

I agree that we’ve played quite poorly. I should’ve known that both Eliza and Magnus were obvious misexecutions that didn’t even provide us that much information… in fact, on some level, I did know - that’s why I didn’t join Zorvo on Eliza - but I didn’t have the conviction (or the time) to argue against them.

I’ve got to start actually playing the game, I really do. Preferably as soon as possible. If I did have the ability to make statements I had confidence in, I would’ve done it already… but maybe this is the point where I need to learn that being loudly wrong is often better than quietly correct, provided one is willing to reconsider their opinions upon being presented with further information.

That being said, time to do a little rereading. I’ll VOTE: Arete while we’re at it, I suppose.

#2005

If they were that obviously mis-exe’s to you why do you not suspect the people on those wagons more? Because I definitely do.

#2006

ok zorvo is immediately triggering my pocket paranoia

#2007

isn’t like your whole gimmick to murder me every single game? @Zorvo why am i town
i haven’t even done anything yet and phraze posted literally nothing of value

#2008

They don’t have the vibe of super wolf-pushed misexecutions to me.

Magnus made some mildly suspicious comments that I jumped on and hard focused, for example, and Zorvo was a big driver behind the Eliza wagon and I think he’s a villager.

It feels like we’ve been tearing ourselves apart and the wolves have been letting it happen - I’d look more carefully at people on vanity wagons and counterwagons (which obviously is a bad mark against me lmao but I’m willing to say it, I have an excuse [you don’t have to believe my excuse] [it is still true though]).

If Zorvo is actually a wolf, props to him for having such varied wolfgames, and I’m willing to take that L if the time comes for it.

#2009

Like I literally have to assume one of Zorvo/Arctic/Arete is a wolf because if both Magnus & Eliza can get votes by all three of them and both are T and both wagons are pure then this is a circus and I am out.

Zorvo is calling Arete evil the entire game but voting with them by EOD (lol) and Arctic is being scumread now I don’t know which is worse. Honestly both.

#2010

Jarek, mafia is a game that takes place entirely within a circus ring. You have to account for the clownery.

#2011

:popcorn:

what’s your read on me, May?

1 Like
#2012

I was right following the same logic the last game - for the wrong reasons, maybe, but it’s best to eliminate the occams razor world before moving forward rather than taking complete shots in the dark because someone said “ur sus”

1 Like
#2013

My read on you is that the gamestate tells me there was evil fuckery going on D1, and you were involved in various fuckeries throughout the day, so perhaps the two are linked. Hope this helps :+1:

#2014

And I can personally say if we shoot those 3 and all 3 are town this town is both a joke and I can tell you who the wolves are with almost definite certainty

Lemonfairy Aleph and one of phraze/prisma/otter

Cope and call me wrong but I follow my own whacky line of logic and I am never wrong.

1 Like
#2015

VOTE: Zorvo

Gonna start here because the fact that someone can call someone lockwolf and campaign for their execution and then end up voting with them by EOD on a town both times is just hilariously what the fuck and evil in a vaccum. Like maybe once. But twice? Really?

#2016

it doesn’t really

(the main reason it doesn’t help is that you can say that about like a third of the game, so this doesn’t distinguish between ‘real read for real reasons’ vs. ‘May said some things that are true and then deliberately picked an agenda-y target’)

#2017

wow this phrasing sucks

like

‘picked a target for reasons based in agenda rather than based in what May believes’

#2018

I don’t have real reads. I don’t hold in my head a True and Correct Read List That I Believe. The process of voting and arguing for a target is my primary method of gaining information, and if I gain information that disproves a scumread on you, then I’ll switch.

The real answer as to the main source of my read is my trust in Zorvo, and secondarily Marl. I know Zorvo’s town, and I know if I listened to his instincts better, I’d probably have a win on this site by now.

The secondary answer is just… interaction with the game. Your opening posts. The way you make arguments. It feels in a way that stands out as a texture to me, one I cannot fully explain due to :boom:. You are not moving like a townie.

#2019

I think that if you really, genuinely read my posts, not just skimming, and think about what they mean for my alignment, and you are a villager, you will be able to see it. I think that … almost no one in this entire game, including the people townreading me, has actually done this.

I think it is notable that when people have tried to look through my posts, and actually do this, they mostly come up with townie things – like, Lemon is repping a wolfread on me right now, but if you actually read her iso, it’s mostly calling my thoughts townie. ‘Lots of townie points but a few mildly weird things’ is pretty much the exact opposite of what happens when I’m a wolf – if you want a point of comparison, you can look at my most recent wolfgame, although obvious ‘it was a mash’ caveat is obvious.

I think that basically no one (except Zorvo and maybe Marl) actually believes I am a wolf. I think a lot of people want to live in a world where I am a wolf – it’s convenient to think that’s why we’ve misexe’d twice, it’s comfortable not to have to get in a shouting match with Zorvo, it means the game isn’t devolving into v/v violence – but wanting to believe something isn’t the same thing as believing it, or the same thing as it being true.

‘I trust Zorvo and Marl’ is a cop-out answer; this is far from the first time either of them has wildly misread me (albeit in Marl’s case it’s more often in the other direction lol). I think Zorvo’s case in particular … includes several claims that are just flat-out factually wrong, which I have pointed out and which he does not seem to particularly care about.

Vulgard is one of the players in the game with the best read on me – like, in general, not like ‘oh he’s reading me right this game so he’s better than everyone else,’ like ‘I used to be legitimately scared that people would think we were cheating because we were so good at reading each other’ (we aren’t that good at reading each other any more, to be clear, I think that if I were a wolf this game and he were in this game from the start, I could give him enough doubt in the read to live to night 1). And – it feels nebulously gross to say ‘Vulgard is townreading me, everyone else can get in line,’ but if you are in the business of deferring to people and you are not even acknowledging his read, then you are leaving free information on the table for no reason.

(I also think deferring can feel intellectually safer, like it’s not Your Fault if you’re wrong, but that’s not really how things work)

I think a really important thing to keep in mind when reading me is that I am fundamentally kind of weird, I have a lot of weird sideways perspectives that aren’t exactly what normal people do.

which is not to say that I’m unreadable, or even that standard tells never work, but it does mean that if you’re looking for someone who plays completely normally you will wolfread me every single time

so I start quoting Pathfinder fanfic that was written by someone who might literally in real life arguably be a cult leader to explain why someone is wrong, or reverse a read by 180 degrees in the span of thirty seconds because of a single post in LyLo, or declare someone is town because of their bad explanation of how they used Bayesian reasoning, or genuinely and unironically accuse a villager of scumslipping because they made a joke about the flavor, or write a correct scumcase on someone that’s five words long and tunnel them until they die, or start posting copypastas at someone during EoD as one of the top wagons to try to convince him I’m a villager, or have extended conversations with my mental model of people who aren’t even in the game during final 3

(all of these are real examples from real towngames, all but one of which was within the past year)

And – I think that’s what you’re picking up on (and I think you are picking up on it? I don’t really know how to explain why I think this is a townie response from you, beyond quoting specific lines while metaphorically jumping up and down and pointing but I do), you’re not wrong that I’m not moving through this game exactly the way people stereotypically expect a stereotypical model of a villager to move, you’re just – treating me as a generic rather than a specific person, and I think if you metaphorically tilt your head 15 degrees to the side and look again the answer is obvious.

1 Like
#2020

@Zorvo can you answer this question i’m seriously losing what little patience i have left here