not canada-only, they released it elsewhere
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Idk why i thought it was canada only it seemed so true
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Canada⌠zirboâŚ
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do you think zorvo has a wii mini
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I wouldâve said to ask yourself, though you no longer have his pfp
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In the world where a cop outs day 1 with a peek on the best player in the game then yes that game is less complex than Mountainous. However, you cannot say that the setup itself is less complex with generality. My definition of setup complexity is the number of opportunities for non-trivial decisions, and a setup is generally more complex the more non-trivial decisions it has. A setup with 51 villagers, and 50 wolves is much, much, much harder than Mountainous for the village, and easier for the wolves, but itâs not more complex. The number of decisions are the same, but the decisions just matter a whole lot more. The same setup with a cop introduces the opportunity for more decisions, but when there are still 51 villagers and 50 wolves, it doesnât give the town a whole lot of extra equity. I would say that the cop barely matters in that particular instance, but my point is that alignment equity at rand with a town cop is highly contextual, but it can have a similar impact on player decision making. Decision making is not necessarily independent of equity because at some points the decisions do just become trivial because theyâre not going to effect the outcome of the game, but Iâve been trying to emphasize that complexity is only a function of non-trivial decisions (I should clarify it can also be the cognitive load required to make decisions).
To use a less extreme example, letâs say we have a Cop 25er with 1 Cop, 18 VT, and 6 Goons. The win equity village gets from the Cop necessarily decreases as the value of each peek reduces, but again, wolves still wanna hunt the Cop and villagers would rather the Cop get as many peeks as possible which could affect their play and they make a decision to care about this either way. If we take that same example, and make a Goon a Vigilante, it makes the game more complex because Wolves want to protect the Vigi and Villagers want to find them. Remove the Cop, and the decisions around the Vigilante remain (i.e. the complexity introduced by the Vigilante remains approximately the same), however the village loses win equity. Youâre really stuck on the perceived reduction of difficulty that a Cop introduces without fully appreciating that itâs the game play patterns that change, and thatâs what Iâm mostly concerned with when I evaluate complexity.
To be clear, the moment the Cop dies or is outed, I agree that the game is simplified, but thatâs also tautological because the thing Iâm arguing is introducing the complexity is removed from the game. And also I think that this game state is sometimes marginally more complex than Mountainous with the same ratio of living players! Confirmed players can have a weird effect on the play, and itâs not always +EV for town because a wolf may have pocketed the confirmed player, and a confirmed player tends to be given more weight to their words and villagers are more likely to follow them for a variety of predictable psychological reasons that Iâm sure you can figure out. A villager who disagrees with a confirmed tends to find their time a bit harder to go against the grain, and a wolf with a pocketed confirmed tends to have an easier time winning the game. I would argue this a form of additional complexity as well because it canât be truly said to reduce to Mountainous after the Cop is removed. Like a game with only a Vigi does reduce it to Mountainous when they die, but before that the game is still more complex than the comparable Mountainous setup because there are every player in the game has more non-trivial decisions available to them.
If you do not see what Iâm getting at here, instead of trying to argue you with me further, please explain to me your definition of complexity, and examples of it instead.
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donât worry i gotchu
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It was at one point before being released in AMURICALAND THE MUTHERFUCKING BEAUTIFUL RAAAAAAAAAAAA and probably elsewhere too
Best peak or not regardless, living till N1 is the thing that makes that happen. Just living till N1 allows for the condition of the game being less complex as you stated. Setup complexity is regarded with how much thought goes into the game from my point of view; if a lot of thought goes into itâs defined as âcomplexâ, if a lot of thought doesnât go into it it wouldnât be considered complex. No matter how much underlying things cop9er/13er has that you can theoretically do, it wouldnât be considered complex, since the majority of the time villagers can turn their brains off and win. For the suggested 51v50 setup, obviously the game is complex for villagers, but you canât deny that itâs not complex for wolves meanwhile. Cop matters quite a lot in these setups, but not a lot to deny the fact that the introduction of a cop turns the game from a very complex social one to one that can be mechanically solved with nearly little effort from both sides.
Using these large examples doesnât really affect the argument at hand. The argument is whatâs more complex, a setup with cop or a setup without cop. Reduced to whatâs more complex, mountain15er or cop13er. In addition to that, even these examples, were they to be purely vanilla is arguably more complex than setups that arenât purely vanilla. Wolves want to hunt the cop, village doesnât want the cop to die, but having that safety net still affects the game to a point where having a cop simply reduces the complexity. The main argument at hand is the social complexity outweight the mechanical complexity added, and the answer is almost definitive yes. Adding vigilante to the game makes the game more complex for some members of the town, but at the end of the day their does exist a realistic argument that the gamestate is simplified in general.
What I consider most when evaluating complexity is how thought goes into the game. itâs much easier to thoughtlessly follow the outed cop than to make social reads, and itâs much easier to follow the cops green check / green check an SPK as opposed to finding their alignment. And by it being easier, it also makes it substantially less complex. It is always +ev to have a confirmed player, donât try to argue otherwise. Following the confirmed player meanwhile can not be +ev, thatâs true; but that doesnât add or detract from the complexity of having a cop in the setup. If a cop dies the game is less complex than mountainous, if a cop outs the game is less complex than mountainous, of the cop is in game in general itâs less complex than mountainous due to having the safety net. In addition to that, said thing only refers to F3 situations. Just sheeping the villager in a non LYLO situation and re-evaluating from there is a very real thing, and the setup complexity is reduced one again since you donât have to consider / do NKA.
I did in this post.
@ElizaThePsycho
<3
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Move rasens lower and Ill agree
Whoa
Also, move raspberrys down
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Really
Yes! Theyre horrible!
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You guys are MISSING out on some good dried grapes
So nothing prior to the cop outing matters? Itâs irrelevant if more thought has to go into the game before the Cop outs if the game state can be simplified? Is the game is easier from rand just by virtue of having PRs in it or is this quality just a feature of Cops? A Tracker becomes effectively a Cop when thereâs 1 Wolf. The extra thought a VT may make trying to keep the Tracker alive until that point doesnât matter in your view because they might get some peeks in the late game? As a thought experiment, pick a setup you think is more complex than Mountainous. If all the villagers mass claim, choose to not use their actions (letting them rand if theyâre compulsive), does that change the overall complexity of the setup in your mind because it loses mechanical complexity if the villagers do that? If not, why not? Whatâs the difference between what you argue is the simplicity in a Cop 13er in a post-cop claim situation with living peeks to reveal and the game where villagers mass claim and donât use actions? Can no game with PRs ever be more complex simply because a mass claim can reduce the amount of social deduction required?
Thereâs Good Raspberries. When I talk about raspberries Iâm exclusively talking about Good Raspberries. The Good Raspberries come from Costco and are larger than a US quarter, and even then only certain containers of them are Good. The Good Raspberries are S-tier
Did you know the area grapes grow in also affect their taste?
French Grapes =/= Spanish Grapes =/= Italian Grapes
You missed out on some good grapes