FAM3: REDEMPTION (SIGNUPS) [58/♾]

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#421

Does it need to be flipless? While I do agree on the fact that it should be a Neutral role, I feel like it should be altered or denied entirely rather than modifying the setup to be flipless.

> Altered Town needs to ensure “threats to Town are not eliminated and no Town are alive”.
> Altered Mafia needs to ensure “at least one Town is alive, or prevent Mafia-Town parity”.

FMPOV, the root of the issue is rather how you want to deal with these “altered factions”. Flipless wouldn’t solve the constant doubt of “which players’ win conditions have been altered?”

If you were to consider “prioritize the players’ fun”, then I don’t think many people on this site would appreciate having their win condition changed mid-game.

Any Town and Mafia would have to suddenly reverse their reads and somehow convince the rest “this change makes sense”. I don’t think that’s going to be fun for the players.

2 Likes
#422

Jester becomes either Survivor or “whatever its night counterpart is”, because its win condition went from “ensure you are executed” to either “ensure you are not executed” or “ensure you are killed at night”.

Executioner / Bounty Hunter / Inquisitor essentially become Guardian Angels instead since need to ensure their targets are alive instead of dead.

Serial Killer needs to “not be the only one alive by the end of the game” which essentially means it became a Survivor with KP. Arguably, this role could even work as a pseudo Jester (not to be confused with Pseudojester; that is a Jester which gains the alignment of whichever faction placed the final vote on them), as inverse win condition does not strictly need itself to be alive. (By killing itself it always fulfills its win condition, even if literally everyone else is dead at the end of the game.)

It’s somehow way easier to work with Neutrals than with Town/Mafia.

1 Like
#423

I know how this would work, if this would effect the Neutrals.

But without telling the players the possibility that their wincon “might” be an oposite, I doubt neutral roles would be fun. Just imagine that an Executioner succesfuly execute a player, and leave the game as a loser.

#424

Okay, so we are agreeing on this. Nevermind…

#425

I’ve seen this called Unjester.

2 Likes
#426

Yes, we agree that “a role that reverses win conditions is unfun”.

…but let me comment on something before we end this topic entirely:

I don’t know how others do it, but I generally have it so that mission-type roles leave the game victoriously after reaching their win condition.

So, if an Executioner already fulfilled their win condition, then they can never lose because they would be already gone / untargetable by the time someone wants to inverse their win condition.

The only way they can lose is if they…

  1. were pushing their target hard on D(x-1), but failed to execute them,
  2. got targeted by wincon inversion on N(x-1), and finally
  3. got their target executed on D(x) despite not pushing them at all.

…in chronological order. (Basically, the only way they can lose is if they haven’t won yet.)

1 Like
#427

Mezepheles would be probably be better than Heretic role in FAM.
Convert one town or neutral player to the mafia alignment after saying the secret word.

1 Like
#428

Yes, but I see where we have the conflict.

I guess you assume the player knows that their wincon got inverted.

And knowing Crich and their fanatism about BoTC, I’m 90 percent sure they meant that the role would act passively, like the Heretic in BoTC
(Just checked, because it’s not their role’s own effect, their rolecard isn’t directly lieing to them in that case.)

Well, if players know their wincon is changed, and it happens mid-game. I would rule this as a conversion role. (hence it couldn’t part of the game, as the rules are stated now.)

1 Like
#429

Ah, I see. Yeah, no. A role that silently changes win conditions should never be a thing in the first place.

1 Like
#430

It probably wouldn’t work in FAM, when there is flips galore.

2 Likes
#431

Well, Heretics exists…
(To be fair, it does it semi-silently (Botc games always have semi-open setup), and it counts as a negative utility)

#432

Less than a week to sign up!

#433

Good luck to all~

10 Likes
#434

i can’t believe i have to say this but
we are not putting Heretic in this game
didn’t think i needed to specify

6 Likes
#435

so is atheist free game or

1 Like
#436

Legion goes without saying, then?

2 Likes
#437

yes
while this game has bastard features it is not a Bastard Game. there will not be any universal rugpull type roles. i know we all love (well, maybe not love, but certainly tolerate) Legion, Atheist, and Heretic, but this one is an actual mafia game

3 Likes
#438

But couldn’t you imagine having forty evils in a game?

1 Like
#439

i have played in anni i know what that’s like

4 Likes
#440

You would need just 100 more players for that to happen.

1 Like