kinda think the way you phrased this is scummy, plus the shade with no real followup is eugh
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Alright, I think I understand where youâre coming from now. :3 Letâs wait until tomorrow to continue talking. Hopefully weâre both alive to do that. I donât want to waste any more of your posts talking about this when I already know I have no interest in yeeting you today and when you have so few left.
I canât follow up when Hippo hasnât made an appearance since I made that post. <3 Do you not think Iâve been keeping an eye out for them? :3
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i mean fair
iâm not fully caught up yet but your immediate shfit onto alana without much more thought put into hippo just felt like
wrong
I was skipping around through peopleâs ISOs at that time, particularly ones that I didnât really have any thoughts about at the time. :3
| TARGET | VOTES | VOTED BY |
|---|---|---|
| Arete | 6/12 | Arctic (#1362); LASERpointer (#3152); Marshal (#3019); nutella (#2829); WindwardAway (#1526); Wisdom (#3218) |
| Wazza | 4/12 | Arete (#948); Hippopablompoyeetus (#2824); JohnCarter (#166); Marluxion (#593) |
| Squirrel2412 | 5/12 | bladescape (#2877); Mistyx (#2179); nightingale (#2895) |
| JohnCarter | 2/12 | Vulgard (#3275); Wazza (#120) |
| Marshal | 1/12 | Moonwink (#3343) |
| InternetStranger | 1/12 | Illwei (#2524) |
| WindwardAway | 1/12 | Kyubey (#3155) |
| Not Voting | 5 | alana; InternetStranger; Millium; min (#318); Squirrel2412 (#566) |
Hmm⌠Arete asked me to leave the Squirrel wagon when it was tied with their own.
Now that Iâve left it, it actually put his in the lead. Interesting⌠:3
2 Likes
both players are strong wolves and both are easily able to converse without looking awkward
imo both are among the top 5 best wolves in the playerlist
to find people who arenât w/w youâre gonna need to look at pushes and vote timings post flips. the fol average of being able to communicate without seeming weird isnât really gonna work here
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Tbf I did hard scumread you on D4 before that but then decided to lynch my other scumread Kito who was very sure that the scum team was Sean and Fext and flipped town. This made me later think that Sean and Fext were scum and their plan was to set up mislynches in a certain order by getting rid of kito then getting me to hammer town!you at lylo because I thought you were lhf while fext looked more teamed with your teammate sean than you
I was going to be selfish and let Min believe we couldnât be w/w due to that, but yeah, this is unfortunately true. XD
2 Likes
I think Iâm gonna get back to bed now. Gânight yâall. <3
(Iâm planning on ISOing you before EoD, Marl, so Iâll probably have more stuff to talk about with you soon. <3)
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Also the âshe was all over the placeâ wasnât trying to brag about being able to read you it was stating a fact about how you acted as scum on that day
Marshal is probably a wolf
(and also you should listen to me about it)
It has a lot of words, Iâm sorry. If you donât want to read all of the words, I recommend reading the section labelled âImportant context postâ and then the quotes in the Vul and Arctic sections (you donât have to read the full sections) and drawing your own conclusions, but I do think that âactually reading the whole thingâ is possible.
I am writing this to persuade people not to solve Marshal, I already did the âsolving Marshalâ thing and having done that I am writing this post.
Important context post that Iâm quoting out of order
this is the post that made me go from âMarshal is probably a wolf but could be town having a super super super off gameâ to âMarshal is a wolf and should dieâ
I am quoting it at the beginning so that people can keep in mind, while reading the rest of this post, that supposedly, taking Marshal at her word, she didnât really wolfread them she was mostly suspicious because she was mad at them
and I think that looking at her read on Vul and Arctic, that is clearly false
General approach stuff
So there are a couple reasons why I think Marshalâs approach is wolfy.
- As town Marshal tends to focus more on building a towncore, she does also do the pushing wolfreads thing but the main thing she focuses on is towncoring people (to the point that at one point she correctly called me out for failing to acknowledge that this was her playstyle â I think this was Meowntainado but Iâm not sure). As scum she tends to focus less on making a towncore and more on tunnelling her individual âwolfreadsâ to try to get them misexeâd â to be clear, she does also push people as V, she just additionally tries to build a towncore while doing it. I think her play this game is much more typical of her wolf game, she has made like 1 post that actually expresses a towncore + a handful of posts expressing villagereads but has basically done nothing to actually turn those townreads into something actually resembling a towncore or convince other people of them.
- As town she mostly does not try to discredit people for bad reasons, as scum she does that a lot â like, in Meowntainado, when I was actively trying to get her misexeâd and making the worldâs worst push on her, she still heard me out and considered my slot fairly, whereas in (mentally insert a list of every Marshal scumgame you personally are aware of) she did not do that. This isnât just about her interactions with me, to be clear, I do think those are wolfy but even if you cut literally all the Aretestuff from here I think the case is still correct.
Discrediting Arctic
throughout her early interactions with Arctic, Marshal basically tried to shut him down, box him out, and generally cause people not to listen to him, for reasons that mostly kind of sucked
KEEP IN MIND THAT MARSHAL SAID âi only wolfread them because I was mad at their arguments against meâ
I actually think those are okay/not wolfy, Iâm mostly quoting them as context for the rest of her read
This reason is pretty clearly fabricated. Like if you strip out all the rhetoric Marshal is arguing âArctic is Mafia because people are defending her which indicates that wolves wanted to stop her from being pushedâ â thatâs not a strawman, thatâs her actual argument. She just completely ignores the possibility of, for instance, Arctic being town who is being defended correctly by towns.
She also makes what would theoretically be a super relevant gamestate read if her read is correct, and just ⌠doesnât do anything with it. âWho this indicates idrcâ â if she actually believed that Arctic was a wolf because she was being defended by wolves, I think she would have at least checked who was defending her.
this post is ~fine
Arctic makes a villagery post and Marshal goes out of her way to try to make it look wolfy, I could understand a tunnelled villager not townreading it/thinking people shouldnât townread her for it but I really feel like Marshal is bending over backwards to try to make it look specifically-wolfy
I think Iâm explaining that badly
closer-to-what-I mean is ⌠the conclusion is written before the reasons, Marshal started out making the argument that that post was wolfy and then came up with reasons why it was wolfy, instead of just trying to figure out if it was wolfy or not
this post is specifically terrible in the context of Marshal saying âi only wolfread them because I was mad at their arguments against meâ
like Iâm trying to imagine town-Marshal getting mad that Arctic was scumreading her, OMGUSing her, and then warping all the rest of her reads to also be about that, while aware on some level that her push on Arctic was born from OMGUS
this (specifically the second paragraph) is another read that starts with the conclusion â âArctic is wolf, because sheâs trying to get a push or read goingâ â and makes no consideration of the possibility of her being town trying to get a push or read going
this one is also inconsistent with the world where she didnât really believe it and was mostly just mad
this is another conclusion-first post, but at least itâs honest about being that
this post is actually fine/something town-Marshal could plausibly believe
this is overrepresenting how bad Arcticâs post was to make her look worse (to be fair Marshal does do that as town sometimes, but in the context of the rest of her Iso I think itâs agenda-y)
this is just flat wrong even if Arctic is a wolf which makes me think itâs deliberately BS
legit the only way heâs similar is that in both games he started wolfclaiming when he got pressured
she has several posts like this and it feels like a significant overreaction to Arctic pointing out that Marshal has misread her â like sheâs making what Arctic was saying sound more extreme by using loaded phrasing like âpainting me like the ultimate willagerâ when Arctic wasnât actually doing that
shades Arctic for something that wasnât actually wolf-AI and that I donât think she would believe was wolf-AI
continues to shade Arctic for being inflammatory despite that not being wolfy or something that I think she would think is wolfy
gets mad at Laser for saying they could be V/V (I also think this could be TMI, since she wasnât repping a super strong Laser townread at that point and she jumps to the assumption that Laser is a villa being fooled
this is a bad argument that I think she would recognize is bad, like, âtilted villa feels bad for tilting but keeps doing itâ is incredibly common
then she starts pushing Vul for a bit (this will be covered in the next session) and then comes back and decides Arctic is actually town
when Arctic expressed paranoia, this is how she responded:
I actually went to check and what had specifically happened at that point was that Arctic had started to tunnel Wind, I donât super townread Wind but I do think that Marshal randomly reversing her read for no reason + Arctic starting to tunnel other people could easily be Marshal trying to get her to do literally what he describes here and I donât really see why Marshal would randomly 180 for no reason as town if she was actually confident
Discrediting Vul
this is literally the first mention of Vul in her Iso
this would not be a completely awful read from the perspective of v!Marshal who actually believed those things but it would still be a pretty bad one
like sheâs not actually looking at Vulâs reasoning, sheâs just going after Vul for disagreeing â which she often does for less incorrect villas as wolf, and I think Vul is plausibly one of the most correct players in the game right now
this is pretty blatantly forcing a conclusion
town Marshal doesnât believe that peopleâs motivations are irrelevant because they âcould lie about itâ
as is this is, like, explicitly âVul wolf for disagreeing with meâ
another gamestate read that she does absolutely zero with except using it to support her push
(apart from this which is like, barely even related)
misrepping how Vul was responding to pushes to make him look worse
this is where she pivots to more heavily pushing Vul
it lines up very closely with when Vul started to seriously say that Marshal could be wolf, which is consistent with Marshalâs modus operandi as wolf of trying to get people pushing her voted out
and not consistent with her townplay because the logic makes no fucking sense
âyou disproved my entire argument but Iâm going to keep shading you for itâ
this post is incredibly misreppy, like, Vul said that Marshal âlost the battleâ explicitly because if he gets voted out people would remember his Marshalread, it has nothing to do with his read on JC/min, this is completely ignoring Vulâs actual point to make him look bad
mostly wolfy in the context of her later claim that actually she had never really wolfread Arctic/Vul
Discrediting me
misreps me by claiming I hadnât given many actual comments on her stances when I specifically called out several of her stances, that I had already explained repeatedly why I disagreed with, as being stances I disagreed with, which makes me feel like she was just trying to come up with some sort of reason to push me
this is also misreppy, the read in question was one where I basically understand why people might think that I just thought they were wrong
Marshal could believe this as town but I think itâs kind of weird since the last time we played together (Sorc17) she openly acknowledged that she couldnât do the predict-y thing anymore (âŚand tried to use it to shade me)
this post is legitimately terrible, I know Iâm biased but like
- it goes from âthey did this in one specific wolf game onceâ to âtherefore they are a wolfâ when in fact itâs a personality thing that they should be aware of because theyâve played enough games with me to know that
- legit the entire argument here is that âhaving nuanced reads at allâ means you must be a wolf setting up progression
- also some of it is just completely inaccurate? âWind hasnât been townie yet (yes I know she has a single digit postcount but they arenât townie posts) (eta: itâs double digit now but they still arenât townie)â is not âsetting up progression to take it backâ itâs âmaking a wolfreadâ
I think Marshal randomly bringing this up at a point when I had been gone from thread for 8 hours and therefore unable to read any Mistposts, and openly not caught up before that, is kind of agenda-y, but in maximum fairness to her she could have just not noticed or she could have been talking about posts from before I left
either of these reasons could individually be plausible but together they make no sense, sheâs saying that Iâm wolf for disagreeing with her and also wolf for the thing where I said that I disagreed with her and that that was wolfy and that therefore I was trying to use v/v violence against her
like this is another post that pretty clearly started with a conclusion
this is preemptively trying to discredit the fact that Iâm going to push her by being like âoh of course Arete is going to push me but you shouldnât listen to them because theyâre a wolfâ
Weird treatment of specifically the me + Vul dynamic
starts off shading us because Vul is townreading me
I think this is before she even started scumreading me?
anyways my issue with these posts is that she basically just starts with âwhat if Arete and Vul are w/wâ and goes from there, like she doesnât consider the possibility that Vul could just be ⌠town and right
but then decides we arenât for unclear reasons â I think that Vul is a villager and she realized that she needed an argument that wouldnât be disproven after a single flip
this also has the same problem where sheâs starting from a conclusion and then finding evidence for it, and just not considering the world where weâre town and right, this time she does technically acknowledge the other possibility but in a very tepid way
this is a weaker point overall but itâs there
Bad reaction to questioning of her
So that last post I just quoted actually had a couple of people question it:
and here is how she reacted:
so first of all, this is an absurd overreaction to the point of being obviously fake. Like, a coule of people disagreeing with you is not the same thing as gaslighting.
second of all, sheâs trying to look like the victim, like, âoh, people are trying to prevent me from saying that theyâre v/v! this is so terrible! woe is meâ when no one is actually doing that
third of all she does literally zero with it, like, in other cases this game when sheâs claimed to think people are trying to prevent her from expressing some read sheâs been super reading into it and here sheâs just not, at all (I think this is because the obvious reading conflicts with her agenda)
posts I think are villagery
she does have a few and Iâm including them for completeness
I vaguely believe that sheâd actually had that thought and then found it townie when Night did, like âsame hatâ
(ignoring the last sentence) I think this is a villagery think to think of
also this
I donât think any of this outweighs the points against her but I thought I should list them for completeness/fairness
why you should listen to me
A big part of Marshalâs MO as a wolf is getting people who wolfread her voted out, and then convincing everyone, âoh, I just got them voted out because they were so wolfy, if only they hadnât been so wolfy and made such terrible pushes I wouldnât have inadvertently done that!â (this is a strawman of how she does it but it is how she does it) and generally trying to get people to not listen to her. I realize that I am probably not going to convince anyone today but â thatâs whatâs going to happen tomorrow, almost certainly.
I expect that tomorrow-Marshal will point out that I have mistunnelled her before, which is true, but hasnât been true for years, I have a better grasp of her playstyle now.
(alternatively we can just flip her today and not have to deal with tomorrow-Marshal, that is also an option)
I am not going to say she is literally 100% lock wolf, but I am very confident, and know her better than all of the non-FoLers and many of the FoLers. If it makes you feel better you can decide in advance to blame me if she flips town.
massping
⢠@alana
⢠@Arctic
⢠@Arete
⢠@bladescape
⢠@Hippopablompoyeetus
⢠@Illwei
⢠@InternetStranger
⢠@JohnCarter
⢠@Kyubey
⢠@LASERpointer
⢠@Marluxion
⢠@Marshal
⢠@Millium
⢠@min
⢠@Mistyx
⢠@Moonwink
⢠@nightingale
⢠@nutella
⢠@Squirrel2412
⢠@Vulgard
⢠@Wazza
⢠@WindwardAway
⢠@Wisdom
3 Likes
itâs 5 AM and I am falling asleep where Iâm sitting but Iâll stick around at least a little longer for questions
my god my cat is making it impossible to focus on the thread
heâs sitting between me and my monitor like the fucking guardian sphinx of the desert, protecting me from the horrors of the mouse pointer
anyway
nutellaâs pushes all feel like âwhere can i put my vote and pressure without taking too much pressure in returnâ, it doesnât feel like she believes in any of her pushes. i noticed it earlier when i was reading in bed, and i think this makes her even more likely than wazza to flip w
Whatâs your experience with Nutella wolf? Idr having any personally
iâve been in games with her wolfing before but i never really put much effort into solving her, mostly because itâs always like mashes or larger games
this isnât really a meta thing, just that i dont feel like she believes in any of her wolfreads