i never blocked any kills, I just can block kills
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there might be an experiment I could try out regarding may tonight
Alright, great. I’m comfortable personally declaring, then, that it is extremely likely that either Zorvo or Jarek is scum - either the kill was blocked by Magnus jailkeeping Zorvo, or Jarek used the NK to try to make their claim look better. I don’t believe the wolves held the nightkill to frame Jarek, that would be stupid. Well, maybe it wouldn’t be, but they’d have to be extremely passive wolves in a very good spot.
“Oh, but you’re in the thunderdome with Zorvo!” If I’m going to die today, I’m going to contingency plan. I wanted Zorvo flipped today initially because he is a useful anchor for the game - if he’s scum, that gives us a ton of information, and if he’s not scum, that does the same. Being in this thunderdome state where it’s me or him was not actually my intention, despite my jokes, and I should’ve known better than to create this situation, but I have, so I’ll see it through.
When I came to the thread initially, I thought Jarek’s claim was by far the weakest, and I… still kinda think it is? Given there’s no relation that I can tell between the GMs… what are the chances that they’d both come up with the Even-Night CPR Doctor specifically? I hadn’t even heard of the unmodified role before now. They also claimed it just after that Odd-Night claim from Italy and Richard, something I initially took as “oh, let me make my role believable by making it match theirs”.
If Jarek is a wolf, Eliza was killed specifically to make it look like their role was confirmed. Given their extensive encouragement of whatever’s going on with Zorvo and I, and given what I read back from Zorvo, I don’t think the two are aligned. That means the Jarek wolf world is probably mutually exclusive with Zorvo’s. I also don’t… know how many people would allow that to happen, would allow using the NK on something like that. I’ll have to iso Jarek to more closely find hypothetical partnerships in this world.
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I suppose those “extremely passive wolves in a very good spot” would have to include either Italy or Richard, given they’re both considered confirmed town. That’s the third base of a world, then, but I’m not super interested in pursuing that one yet.
would you be told
Responding to Magnus’s post would probably be productive.
@Magnus, I’m going to link to you the only game I’ve played with Zorvo where he was a wolf.
In this game, he bussed like hell. He got a wolf out D1 and continually pushed his buddies; the wolfteam here was Conroy, Eliza, Eeeve, Zorvo, Kiiruma, meaning the wagons on D1 were W/W/W. Throughout that day, he had very similar confidence that his buddy was a wolf and he did very similar moves to try to follow up that wolf execution and link it to multiple townies.
I think there’s places you can argue that this game is different from the case I made (in fact, honestly, looking at how he treated Eliza, I’m less sure of my unaligned reads), but I think it’s nonsense to argue that Zorvo is cleared by getting out Neon. That’s not how he operates. He has complete faith in the strength of his towngame, which translates to bussing a lot when trying to imitate it.
For reasons that are very out-of-game, on previous days I was having a lot of trouble… just, like, thinking. I couldn’t agree with myself, I was torn on every possible thought, and so I couldn’t draw conclusions from any of them. That’s why I didn’t have a world to analyze, and that’s why I had to select Zorvo as an anchor to get anything done, mentally. Of course, you cannot confirm those out-of-game reasons, especially because I’ll never tell anyone what they are, but that’s the explanation, for the curious.
I could have been king, and I chose not to be. What benefit would waiting give me as a wolf? It’s two-shot, it’s non-consecutive, I can’t use it at XyLo, by choosing not to use my ability today, I have wasted a charge. I didn’t use it because I didn’t trust my own judgement with regard to roles. That’s not something that exists as scum. It’s not entirely provable to anyone but me, of course, but that’s what was happening.
We’ve been over this. There’s 11 players left, likely 3 scum. I cannot critically analyze every single pair in that situation. Of course my worldview rises or falls with Zorvo’s flip, because on earlier days, I pick executions that help me narrow things down. While I generally don’t wolfread you, I found the making of this point… so bizarre. It’s a weird false equivalency - I was less solvy on the first three days of GOAT^2. I don’t know if it’s just a matter of “well they were right about me then and she’s been SUSPECTING me now, so she’s playing worse!!!”, which would be a natural result of being town here, but, like… usually I expect more from Magnus.
- See Valorant mafia. You cannot take Zorvo’s behavior and simply map it one-to-one on what you think you would do, or what you think is optimal, because he is a different person from you and he has a very specific style of going about things. His opinion of himself means that if he wants to imitate his towngame, he’s going to push his wolf buddies.
- It’s not entirely a viberead. Some of the way he’s behaved has been materially different from his previous play. I’ve explained it to death already.
- “The ideal play, from your point of view” - stop trying to map everything one-to-one on what you think would be ideal. There’s a reason I want Zorvo flipped, and that’s because the way he plays wolf is very distinct and telling. He would throw Neon under the bus a thousand times, just as he threw Conroy under the bus in Valorant.
I know I shouldn’t be hostile here, I know, it’s unproductive, if I’m accepting death there’s no point, and if I’m not, then I should be appealing to you, I literally did do this, and you said you’d read through the entire post beforehand. Why the hell are you calling my conclusions on Jarek “noncommittal commentary” here when I literally came up with something concrete five minutes later.
What? How is this a lie? Just because he’s trying to push me as partnered with Neon now doesn’t mean he was doing it from the start. At the time he was writing this, very early on, he saw Jarek’s conclusions that Eliza and I were W/W and went “oh it’s true, I was thinking it but not saying it, you’re right, I can get behind you” - how the hell does that not read as passing the torch.
It’s not a damn misrepresentation just because he went and took credit for the suspicions afterward, I’m talking about a specific moment during specifically early D1! He changed what he was doing with us later, when he realized that he could connect me to Neon and bus there, but in this post, right here, he was pushing a bad read onto Jarek, which I didn’t think he would do to his buddy. Come on.
Also, yeah, Eliza was doing well this game.
My direction was “wow, I don’t know if Zorvo would connect his TR of his buddy to a W/W read on two villagers”. That’s it.
- I was talking about myself. He was a wolf pushing Eliza and me.
- Yes, he would’ve. Look at Valorant. Look at Valorant. A thousand times, he’d do that - not only bus Neon to get me killed, but avoid N1ing me, because he literally did it the last game in which he was a wolf, and I think I even said aloud that he continually overestimates me and if I got N1ed, look at Zorvo. You have to think about the individuals involved in things.
Magnus, come on, that’s misrepresenting my argument. It’s about the specific way he tried to simultaneously appeal to me about the villager I was pushing (and the one he was accusing of being my buddy) and keep pushing me as scum. It’s not about how he said we were both scum, it’s about how he specifically said that he wanted those two wagons to exist. That he wanted someone to push Eliza with me.
I don’t understand what you’re saying here in the slightest.
Stop trying to appeal to my fears of being wrong when you know you’re reinforcing this thunderdome between Zorvo and I. You can say “wow, this disagrees with Richard, what does everyone else think”, but the whole “Well you’re probably wrong” you’re going with while insisting that in the case that I’m a townie, Zorvo is a wolf, and I’m correct, is so weird. You’re considering no world in which I’m a villager wrong about Zorvo, so why are you phrasing things like I am?
The intention of this post is to rebut your arguments, not to accuse you of being a wolf, but I’m accepting death now, so I can say whatever I notice - I don’t need to appeal to you.
Yeah, it was a joke.
It’s like he knew it was wrong. Simultaneously confidently pushing a villager and acting like your case on them is a “deep tinfoil” is indicative that you’re pushing a case that you know isn’t founded in anything.
Yeah, villagers ought to adopt multiple viewpoints, and Zorvo wasn’t. He wasn’t pushing wolfcases on anyone but me, Eliza, and later Neon, but he kept announcing how conflicted he was anyway, as if appealing to the concept of multiple viewpoints while not actually holding them. If he was truly conflicted, then I think he would’ve talked about how other people were wolves, but he fuckin didn’t!
It literally does not, buddy.
My point in the last post was that he was outwardly saying he was conflicted while seeming very confident in his case on me. My point in this post was that he was confident that my case on him was legitimate and founded.
Not only would it not be a contradiction if I were saying Zorvo seemed simultaneously conflicted and confident about his case (he did), that’s not even the point I was making. I was saying he was taking my suspicion of him too seriously.
It’s not a tell I’ve noticed from him previously, but rereading your posts, going “oh, that betrays that I’m a wolf”, and feeling the need to add additional clarifying commentary is something I’ve certainly done as various almost-evils and in short-form games.
Am I really known for always thinking through different worldviews? I tunneled in GOAT^2, I tunnel everywhere, I openly announce my deep and unabiding love for the tunnel. I think Zorvo knew he couldn’t N1 me (because protectives and also that’s what he did last game he was evil), so he wanted to get me tunneled on an incorrect world until he could kill me, or even indefinitely.
Yeah, fair
Not what I was saying. Regardless of intent of my initial case (I had a neutral read on Zorvo at the time, I’m maintaining that), I am a player known for falsifying my reads, but he didn’t think about the possibility that I was. You don’t seem to understand this point that I make here multiple times throughout this iso - acting as if every case on you must have true weight to it is a wolftell, because you know they do. Call it self-TMI.
See, in terms of who’s actually the most important player in the game, I agree with you, but I was being obnoxious as a joke there.
Next few comments are irritating to quote, but I already went over how actually, yes, him connecting Neon to me makes sense and is exactly one-to-one with what he did in Valo.
Typically when I say “in some direction or another” and “dunno”, that means that I’m not saying it’s necessarily partner indicative between Zorvo and Jarek. I saw this post, went “well that probably means something, but I don’t know what”, and put in this comment, because I wanted to bring it to everyone else’s attention as well.
You! Said! That you read through my post before this! You know I went on to conclude Jarek wasn’t aligned with Zorvo!
Sometimes in mafia games, especially when I get 3P, I’ll just pick one person who I think is the most fun to argue with and tunnel them for a few days for my own entertainment. They usually get nightkilled, which is obnoxious - once I spent an entire silenced day building a case on someone for this reason, and then they immediately died. SAD. I’m not doing that this time around, as you can tell by the fact that I have occasionally abided and considered a world where Zorvo was town.
If Zorvo knew you were town, he would consider you unlikely to fakeclaim (as a townie) and be more likely to believe your claim. The fact that he maintained that your claim was super real and believable is the reaction of a wolf who knows that a townie’s talking.
He is unrelenting. He is so unrelenting. Take once glance at Valorant.
As a wolf, he tries to imitate his towngame. He thinks that he is always right in his towngame.
I literally said “in Zorvo wolf world”. I’ve judged you unaligned from Zorvo. It’s not TMI, it’s drawing conclusions from given conditions.
It’s basic deduction… Zorvo is acting unpaired from you… come on.
I get that you haven’t read it, but Valorant. Valorant. Valorant. That game was fucking nonsense, and had you seen it, you’d feel the same way.
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Cape can tell you how much I mentioned Valorant in a guillo game we both been in
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Anyway, since I’m accepting death now, I can analyze wagons on me live without holding back! Awesome.
May (4): Zorvo, Marluna, Magnus, Jarek
Zorvo (3): May, Cape90, Silviu200530
CRichardFortressLies (1): beancat
beancat (1): Italy
Magnus (1): JaidenNot Voting (1): CRichardFortressLies
Marluna dropped a vote on me without commentary. That’s strange to me, and I’m not sure she’d do it W/W with Zorvo? I’m trying to think about the numbers here - I die, I flip town, that just leads Marluna and Zorvo both to death… so their third partner would have to be confident they could take the game from there, so… not Beancat, probably not Silviu? Or maybe she would do it regardless of fear… I dunno.
What I should be looking for right now is any evidence that we’re potentially V/V and this case is being encouraged by wolves. Given the mechanical information I have, I can already probably conclude that Jarek’s a wolf if we’re V/V, but the socials reinforce it as well… I wonder if Magnus is a potential partner or not? They already noted that if we’re V/V, they’d go after Italy and Richard, which could be setup, but I’d have to look more carefully. These are the kinds of things I’d never say were I not accepting death - I couldn’t afford to antagonize Magnus normally. Beautiful stuff. I am going to be executed <3
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We’ve already lost if you’re V/V and you think I’m the wolf in that world to be perfectly honest
B r u h
If we’re V/V, I see at least one wolf lying low - that would mean a wolf in Beancat/Italy/Jaiden, maybe Silviu or Marluna, since they’ve taken quiet sides in this? That’s not super helpful.
Odd-night slank doctor… I wonder if that could be a wolf role. I don’t see Jarek/Richard as W/W, because of their corresponding odd-night and even-night “doctor” claims, and the only point of a mafia doctor would be to prevent town killers.
I should be going now, I’ll think more later.
Maybe it’s smarter FMPOV to flip Jarek instead of Zorvo today. I already think it’s a difference check and I think Jarek’s claim is less believable. I still don’t know how claiming even-night immediately after someone else claimed odd-night is like… generally considered normal and fine.
Of course, I’m probably not getting either flip today, but… I can dream in the abstract. Anyone want to vote for Zorvo
Why?
Why?
You’re barking up the wrong tree and if you’re legitimately town that isn’t a good thing if you really want to leave a legacy
This sounds like an excuse you can use after I flip town and continue to push more wolf agenda.
Wolf Agenda.
Push me out today and then Jarek tomorrow
Mafia didn’t have to attack last night.
FYI
Already pushing for a Jarek ML after mine eh?
Lmao.
Like this is obvious wolf agenda lmao.
^^^^^
May and Silviu, I’m telling you my solve is fucking correct here!
It’s jarek
Okay. Why is it me.