If I was being rude, it was unintentional.
Here’s the link to a BOTF, which had Heretic on script.
BotF IX - Call for Distress - Evil wins - Completed - Forum of Lies (fol-archive.netlify.app)
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I don’t play BotC as often as you do, and I am not exactly well-known to remember stuff.
Why not? Modify the Heretic such that all it does is “as long as you are alive, when a Jester is supposed to win, they will lose instead” basically forces the Jester to join the social deduction game. It’d be Heretic-hunting, but that’s about as close as I can get to forcing Jester to play the game.
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and what is the jester supposed to do about that
hope the heretic randomly dies so their wincondition is possible or actively try to hunt the heretic thereby making it obvious they are the jester?
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Hoping that Heretic dies is one thing I have no control over, but it’s not as if you can’t mask Heretic-hunting as scumhunting.
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idk the entire concept just seems like a really bad gatekeep on the jester’s wincon which 90% of the time they have no control over which they’d also be punished socially by trying to remove the gatekeep by making it clear they are heretic hunting and thus a jester, making people steer clear from executing them
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There is something I don’t understand with your thought process. You make it seem as if the entire process of Heretic-hunting is obvious. If that was the case, then wouldn’t every scum who is faking scumhunting also be obviously scum?
Then there is the idea of other non-Jester players acting as Jester by faking Heretic-hunting. Town does it to bait kills (which is useful in niche situations e.g. when they know they cannot die because of [reasons]) while Mafia does it to avoid getting executed. (Even though admittedly that is a bad long-term strategy. Still, it is a strategy nonetheless.)
Is it a bad gatekeep if the players don’t have full control over it?
- Odd/Even modifiers and Novice modifier (or whichever modier prevents D1/N1 abilities): Players have no control over time; they need to wait for it.
- Lovers: They have no control over their partner, yet if their partner dies then so will they.
- Inquisitor: Get three certain people (ironically called heretics in-flavor IIRC) eliminated before Inquisitor dies. This role is literally what I plan Jester to become, except they’d only need one person dead and they need to die by execution afterwards.
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i probably oversold the social implication of heretic hunting but to put it simply i think a gatekeep of “hey you can’t win unless this specific role dies, but you don’t know which player has this role and you also have no way of killing them so you just gotta hope it happens” is bad, and to top it off that isn’t even the wincon
none of the examples you’ve brought up here are actually gatekeeps, because the first two aren’t wincon related (roles don’t need to use their ability to win, lovers can win when dead - it is a hindrance, not a gatekeep) and inquisitor is entirely different because they have mech to kill their targets which adds an entire other approach of using mech rather than trying to get the target executed during the day
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you’re essentially proposing an executioner who doesn’t even know who their target is
(who then also has to get themselves executed)
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Okay, I guess our definition of gatekeeping is different, but I understand your point about how modifers and roles are not gatekeeps.
So basically, Inquisitor:
- Needs 3 unknown people dead, and cannot die before then
- Can kill
While Jester:
- Needs 1 unknown person dead, and cannot die before then
- Cannot kill
- Needs to be executed after the unknown person dies
You are unsatisfied because of this, yes?
(Not advised to give Jester any KP -not even 1-Shot Vig- because [bias]. --eh, maybe it’s fine to give it a 1-Shot Vig.)
(Not advised to give info on Heretic, because then Heretic-hunting becomes obvious.)
The best thing I can think of right now is giving the Jester a Heretic-Cop which immediately disables Heretic if found. How about this?
(We are slowly turning into a thread of “How to handle Jesters” discussion thread. LOL)
(Then again, the thread is called “Thoughts on Jesters”, so this actually fits.)
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This sounds like the Inq, but evolving backwards in time.
Conceptually, this feels either too difficult or just not fun. I would not have fun playing such a role
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in botc at least heretic still keeps their ability when dead :)
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“Devolution FM”… That’s a concept I can work with.
Thoughts on giving Heretic-Vanillaizer to Jester?
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So am I getting this right
We have suddenly turned to botc Heretic to solve game ending Jester
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Kind of? It’s more like I took aspects of Heretic into a GE-Jester counter. For example, if “Heretic” dies, then GE-Jester can win, unlike BotC Heretic.
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Yeah, Joakim
“Throne of Lies: Archeological Adventure”
Uses only the first generation version of roles that existed in the first version of ToL.
Why not just keep Heretic-Vanillizer and toss the Jester part?
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Because the Heretic does nothing other than preventing Jester from winning.
So throwing away the Jester part would be like throwing away the reason of Heretic’s existence.
(Because the “Heretic” I am talking about is not BotC Heretic.)
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jesters without a counter are a problem
solution: add something the jester cannot counter stopping them from winning unless they get lucky
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just play Nightless Mime 9
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