i feel like there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running it that way in your games and treating your games like that
however, if it became something imposed by the site, i would probably part ways with this site peacefully, just like i did with MU
I don’t think you’re talking in bad faith at all
Just that you’re taking things to an extreme that was neither meant nor implied by my post
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At any rate I personally quite like having you in my games
I would not enjoy you using a wolf chat in my games to spread negativity about others behind their backs, which to me is what “private venting” reads as
But I also don’t feel like I’ve really seen that from you so I’m really not sure where your strong concern about this lies
its not so much about spreading negativity, i’m not scared about that because i dont really do that
im scared about being in a high stress situation and talking about serious stuff like suicide to supportive friends and then being forced to open that up to abusive shits who suicide bait me
there’s more stuff than just being mean to other people that i would want private because… i feel really vulnerable about it and i get scared people will hurt me over it
i’m much less scared because i feel much safer in this community than others but
yeah
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glad to hear that, and we definitely aim to keep things that way
first off, there is no excuse for that kind of behavior from others, and if our mods are worth their salt that will be the fastest possible one-way ticket off of this platform I can think of
however, I would again bring up that it feels pretty unfair to the host of the game to have to basically make moderation decisions about this type of content in a chat for a game they have decided to host for fun, and further that restricting everyone else’s ability to see the machinations of the wolf team purely because of this, is still unfair to them
I don’t think there’s really any blame on you or anything - it’s not really about that at all
But I do firmly believe that it’s just not fair to others
I empathize with your feeling that this is the only way to talk with your friends on the team within the confines of the game, but I would suggest that maybe the confines of the game exist in the first place specifically to allow for the game content (including wolf chat) to be enjoyed by all who signed up for the game. Using it in such a way that ultimately does not allow this seems to me to be somewhat missing the point of why we prefer you talk in wolf chat instead of DMs in the first place.
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First off, in the interest of being fair to our hosts, who should not have to act like moderators, I would suggest that content of that nature is generally understood to be off-limits within a game. Forum Game Rule #18 exists largely to keep certain kinds of emotionally-charged material out of the game, in order to enable a more enjoyable game experience for all players, even when one player might be feeling really upset - I would posit that there is zero reason this same rule and the same principle would not also apply to wolf chat, which is a part of the game. Sure, you aren’t trying to use a direct appeal to emotion as a piece in an argument in a place where you know you’ll all on the same side; however, the intent of the rule is pretty clear:
And as it is generally understood that all site and game rules apply to wolf chats, there is no reason this should be any different. Again, I just find that terribly unfair to the hosts and players involved.
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Secondly, there are better ways to bend this rule or address content that makes a user feel vulnerable but does not break any rules without completely denying others access to a vital part of the game. In particular, going through and redacting specific messages or creating a specific channel for content you feel should maybe not go public are both far less unfair options to the others involved in your game.
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i was writing something about this and then i deleted it but im gonna just summarize it
lots of my panic attacks in particular revolve around disappointing my teammates and nobody can really convince me that it’s not true unless i hear it from exactly them
so the options are basically, we have it in wolfchat, or we have it in a DM with the wolves which is like a discount wolf chat and also not entirely clear if that’s allowed in the scope of game integrity rules (i’ve done it but i’m not sure that it’s allowed i just havent told anyone)
i would be largely fine with most of wolfchat being released with the possibility of a deleted/restricted channel or two
i think our different perspectives on fairness just come from our different perspectives on what we expect out of a game. i understand why you feel like it’s unfair. i don’t personally, but that’s fine and i don’t think there’s any moral charge out of it
re: hosts moderation piece, i totally agree. If anything feels out of line, hosts should just report wolfchat posts to the moderators rather than trying to moderate it themselves, just like if the main thread gets out of line
re: ATE rule, i feel like the intent of the rule is heavily this segment
- Posts that imply that your out-of-game well-being is being harmed by the game force other players to decide between pursuing their win condition and preserving your out-of-game well-being.
which i agree is not healthy for the game, but i think that that’s not reeeeally true of wolfchat venting often for the exact reason you stated, that you are not actually forcing players to decide between their wincon and your wellbeing
tl;dr: i think we have a different perspective of what we expect to get out of a game when we sign up, and thus have different expectations of the fairness. and that’s fine really
i do feel like this is the ideal compromise, yeah
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Given all of the above, and given nobody is ever forced to say something they can’t make public, and particularly given how many rules we have restricting what you can say within the context of the game, I just don’t see any good arguments for shutting out an entire wolf chat in just about any scenario.
Everyone’s well-being is important, but by signing up for a game that inherently involves being under scrutiny from others, we all agree to give a bit of ourselves up to be attacked by others, and it is only by the rules we set that we ensure all players feel they are being treated fairly in this exchange.
do you think that if i took notes, did analysis, or stored readlists in my classcard as town that those should go public as well, if anybody asked?
this is just out of curiosity, i have no argument that i’m trying to make
I would personally
Hell I’ve released hydra chats before lol
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Generally, though, town members, by the nature of the game, show their work
Mafia members inherently do not
i do think that the crux of our disagreement is generally that
we disagree about what we want to receive out of mafia games (i get the feeling that you want all the cards on the table and to really understand the game intricately, while i don’t particularly), and therefore we disagree about what a fair price to pay in order to get that is (naturally if you wanted more than me, you would be willing to pay more than me to do it)
obviously there’s nothing wrong with that
and i do feel comfortable after reaching through that we can work through to a compromise to play together that we can generally both feel is close to fair, even though it’s not perfectly so
which makes this a more productive conversation than many!
please do correct me if i’m wrong though
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maybe it shouldn’t be used for that then?
also, i’m not advocating for a blanket disallowance, just that there’s a bit more investigation when wolves request for wolf chat to not be released rather than it being something done without any kind of resistance
what about rolecard
read to the end and then ask me any outstanding questions you have then, because i do change my mind a lot and i dont wanna endlessly rehash everything
I suppose I wouldn’t hate if scumteams had a single allocated private channel that was reserved for discussion they wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing publicly, although I still think that falls into slippery territory where people treat that chat as an unmoderated space when it shouldn’t be.
For what Snowe said about discussing heavy topics, I don’t think that’s necessarily something that should be imposed on other players or the host in a groupchat, but if someone’s really opposed to venting about whatever in their private rolecard for some reason, I think it’s a fair compromise. Players can see what happens in scumchats during games, evils have the freedom to discuss whatever they need in a safe environment together, if that makes a difference.
again like, “i’m not comfortable with this being public” doesn’t mean “unmoderated”
you still report crap to the mods if it breaks forum rules
it’s not the public’s job to comb through wolfchat and look for forum rule violations, if you see something then you report it and that’s what the mods are for
but some things it just doesn’t make sense to demand to be public purely for the sake of moderation
like i wouldn’t demand all private messages be public so i can make sure that nobody broke the forum rules although magnus can just add themselves to them all anyways
i’m fine with most of it being public for the sake of studying and meta-information and whatnot just like orange and arctic have been saying, i just think that the situation where you have like 6 randomly chosen people in a chat and someone trusts all of them to not report rule violations to the mods is incredibly rare, and in the cases where it does exist there’s nothing stopping them from doing it in an identically off-forum space
if someone is legitimately making you uncomfortable in wolfchat, reach out to a mod that’s not playing, at least i assume that’s what the mods are there for
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all this is spitballed and not super well thought out ftr