Nope
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Also it doesn’t matter because the good reasons for it are nonexistent
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if you’re not willing to think about it then what’s the point of bringing it up
When you sign up for a game you are entering into an implied contract to operate within the rules of the site and the game
If you are following those rules then nothing you say in a closed chat for the game should be un-publicizable for any reason
If you aren’t acting in accordance with that then that’s on you tbh
There really is no good argument against the simple fact of the matter that you’re playing a game that you signed up for and wolfchat is just a part of that game - it is incredibly unfair to everybody else that has signed up to a game to restrict their access to that in post for any reason
If you wanna redact some things then fine, I can buy that as okay in some cases, but restricting all of chat means that either it was wildly misused or the decision to not release it is bad
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fair enough
if you expect me to sign away my right to be treated like a person when i sign up for one of your games then i can’t complain about your stance at all
but i would also not play your games and would find a host that would not force me to enter into the contract that anything i say in confidence i must be comfortable sharing publicly
if the site takes the stance that i have to then ill find another forum to play on
nothing against you or your viewpoint
not shading it or saying its bad
just saying that thats not the type of game that i would want to play in because that contract (that anything i say in confidence i must be comfortable sharing publicly) isn’t one i want to be subject to
Let’s keep the hyperbole to a minimum please
You still deserve to be treated like a person, obviously
But there is nothing forcing you to put any sort of personally compromising information into any game-related chat, including wolfchat
If you choose to do that it is unfair to your host in the first place and even more unfair to the rest of the players if you then decide to keep everything private because of it
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i’m not being hyperbolic, i think we’re making different assumptions
i just want a moment so i dont say anything rash
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I would definitely consider saying you would have to “sign away my right to be treated like a person” to be hyperbolic.
It’s just that wolfchat is a part of a game that you yourself made the choice to sign up for, and therefore it should be treated as such. It’s unfair to everyone else who signed up for the game otherwise.
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That being said I don’t want to feel like you’re being attacked or pushed to make any kind of quick response here - absolutely not my intent.
I just have never seen an argument against this central concept that I consider good.
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Oh also to be clear my initial post was not a direct response to yours
I didn’t realize you had posted at all, much less that you were the last person to post about it
I just skimmed general thread topic
Sorry if that was unclear or if it felt like I was dismissing you - it’s not that I’m writing you off, it’s that I’m chirping in without context and with no desire to respond to any particular post, regardless of who
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again, i would warn against attacking people’s good faith-ness, because they can be extremely quick to alienate people and burn bridges
i think the main difference is that i think you’re pinning active blame on me for things that i consider to not be my fault
which is mostly
not really having friends outside of mafia circles that i can actually reliably vent stress to, so i’m forced to use in-game chats to not violate game integrity, and you’re saying simply that i cannot do that in your games
because you pin the blame on me, you feel like its unfair to the other players who have taken the effort to be blameless. Your game contract is entirely reasonable and agreeable, because it persecutes blameworthy people.
because i dont pin the blame on myself, i don’t feel like its unfair because i feel like its out of my control. Your game contract persecutes people for things outside of their control.
the important thing: in your perspective, you wouldn’t want me in your games and i wouldn’t want to be in your games, so I think that that can be our takeaway.
i don’t believe that you’re doing anything harmful either, because people can fully decide to opt out if they’re being hurt by it
so i feel like i just want that mutual understanding and for you to believe that i’m saying the things i’m saying in good faith, and for neither of us to want to change the other
i feel like there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running it that way in your games and treating your games like that
however, if it became something imposed by the site, i would probably part ways with this site peacefully, just like i did with MU
I don’t think you’re talking in bad faith at all
Just that you’re taking things to an extreme that was neither meant nor implied by my post
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At any rate I personally quite like having you in my games
I would not enjoy you using a wolf chat in my games to spread negativity about others behind their backs, which to me is what “private venting” reads as
But I also don’t feel like I’ve really seen that from you so I’m really not sure where your strong concern about this lies
its not so much about spreading negativity, i’m not scared about that because i dont really do that
im scared about being in a high stress situation and talking about serious stuff like suicide to supportive friends and then being forced to open that up to abusive shits who suicide bait me
there’s more stuff than just being mean to other people that i would want private because… i feel really vulnerable about it and i get scared people will hurt me over it
i’m much less scared because i feel much safer in this community than others but
yeah
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glad to hear that, and we definitely aim to keep things that way
first off, there is no excuse for that kind of behavior from others, and if our mods are worth their salt that will be the fastest possible one-way ticket off of this platform I can think of
however, I would again bring up that it feels pretty unfair to the host of the game to have to basically make moderation decisions about this type of content in a chat for a game they have decided to host for fun, and further that restricting everyone else’s ability to see the machinations of the wolf team purely because of this, is still unfair to them
I don’t think there’s really any blame on you or anything - it’s not really about that at all
But I do firmly believe that it’s just not fair to others
I empathize with your feeling that this is the only way to talk with your friends on the team within the confines of the game, but I would suggest that maybe the confines of the game exist in the first place specifically to allow for the game content (including wolf chat) to be enjoyed by all who signed up for the game. Using it in such a way that ultimately does not allow this seems to me to be somewhat missing the point of why we prefer you talk in wolf chat instead of DMs in the first place.
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First off, in the interest of being fair to our hosts, who should not have to act like moderators, I would suggest that content of that nature is generally understood to be off-limits within a game. Forum Game Rule #18 exists largely to keep certain kinds of emotionally-charged material out of the game, in order to enable a more enjoyable game experience for all players, even when one player might be feeling really upset - I would posit that there is zero reason this same rule and the same principle would not also apply to wolf chat, which is a part of the game. Sure, you aren’t trying to use a direct appeal to emotion as a piece in an argument in a place where you know you’ll all on the same side; however, the intent of the rule is pretty clear:
And as it is generally understood that all site and game rules apply to wolf chats, there is no reason this should be any different. Again, I just find that terribly unfair to the hosts and players involved.
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Secondly, there are better ways to bend this rule or address content that makes a user feel vulnerable but does not break any rules without completely denying others access to a vital part of the game. In particular, going through and redacting specific messages or creating a specific channel for content you feel should maybe not go public are both far less unfair options to the others involved in your game.
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i was writing something about this and then i deleted it but im gonna just summarize it
lots of my panic attacks in particular revolve around disappointing my teammates and nobody can really convince me that it’s not true unless i hear it from exactly them
so the options are basically, we have it in wolfchat, or we have it in a DM with the wolves which is like a discount wolf chat and also not entirely clear if that’s allowed in the scope of game integrity rules (i’ve done it but i’m not sure that it’s allowed i just havent told anyone)
i would be largely fine with most of wolfchat being released with the possibility of a deleted/restricted channel or two
i think our different perspectives on fairness just come from our different perspectives on what we expect out of a game. i understand why you feel like it’s unfair. i don’t personally, but that’s fine and i don’t think there’s any moral charge out of it
re: hosts moderation piece, i totally agree. If anything feels out of line, hosts should just report wolfchat posts to the moderators rather than trying to moderate it themselves, just like if the main thread gets out of line
re: ATE rule, i feel like the intent of the rule is heavily this segment
- Posts that imply that your out-of-game well-being is being harmed by the game force other players to decide between pursuing their win condition and preserving your out-of-game well-being.
which i agree is not healthy for the game, but i think that that’s not reeeeally true of wolfchat venting often for the exact reason you stated, that you are not actually forcing players to decide between their wincon and your wellbeing
tl;dr: i think we have a different perspective of what we expect to get out of a game when we sign up, and thus have different expectations of the fairness. and that’s fine really