Weekly Monday Discussion #6 - Computers

[Lumi]

You think it’s all downside because you don’t enjoy discussions that involve it. Labeling it as “all downside” is your opinion not a fact.

Plenty of things can be compelled, people try to compel other people to post more all the time because of volume tells. Should that kind of behavior be banned?

Not even to mention that trying to compel someone to do statistical analysis is particularly silly, because it doesn’t even work.

And re: it making the game worse. There are plenty of kinds of arguments and reads that consistently don’t advance game state, degrade thread health, help wolves, and arguably make the game worse. Should those all be banned too?

Banning a style of read just because you don’t like seeing it and it tends to derail thread is kind of a wild, heavy-handed take IMO.

Disliking seeing it? Sure, absolutely. Not engaging with it? Totally fair.

But making it a site rule that you’re not even allowed to talk about it? Wild take imo.

[Arete]

this isn’t relevant to FoL site policy but I wanted to know:

aret_ aret_ — Today at 3:29 PM

hey Makaze do you happen to know if the word variance statistic in the player analysis tool is normalizing for total postcount and/or total wordcount as each alignment? (I know we aren’t allowed to cite that information in a game, don’t worry, I’m not in any ongoing mafia games and don’t intend to use this information for disallowed purposes)

Makaze — Today at 3:30 PM

word variance uses the percent usage per alignment of the total for denominator (edited)

if you hover over or click on the statistic it should show the formula as a part of that description

in the profile graph not the word table

aret_ aret_ — Today at 3:32 PM

yeah I see the {Average Word Variance As Town}/({Average Word Variance As Town} + {Average Word Variance As Mafia}) formula, I’m just not sure how it’s getting the raw numbers that it puts into those

I might be misunderstanding you

Makaze — Today at 3:35 PM

I’d have to look up the actual code again which I can’t do rn

based on the graph that I’m seeing for my turbo stats it has to be number of words * weight / all words

and weight of each word is based on ratio of frequency as each alignment, typically dropping words with perfect variance

[notblackorwhite]

I was never claiming it was anything beyond my opinion. I don’t like qualifying statements with “just my opinion” because I feel like it’s implied by me saying it.

And I don’t think everything that is liked by someone should be banned, but sites, including FoL, ban stuff that players generally don’t enjoy? Angleshooting (really just gamesmanship) is disallowed pretty much everywhere, same with OGI and trust tells. IIRC there are rules against certain kinds of AtE or whatever it was called because it sucked to play in games with. It’s an absurd argument that just because we shouldn’t ban all things disliked by some people that we shouldn’t ban this one particular thing.

Also I’ve intentionally tried to be really narrow about what I’m advocating be disallowed which is a combination of tools that collate data, and analyze that data. I don’t want to argue about someone’s big data statistics if I’m playing Mafia especially because odds are it’s just tea leaves, and yet I’d have to spend a lot of time figuring out why it’s tea leaves and then explaining to people why we should ignore it. I get that you like statistics, and I’ve been trying from the beginning make sure most of it is still allowed, but the extreme end of it just sucks in my experience so I would like to see it banned.

[Lumi]

I might be misunderstanding what they mean, but measuring the variance by using weights of the ratio of frequency of use as each alignment feels like an odd decision to me.

I should ask them more about it too after I’m done with Sc2Mafia Anni Mash.

To me the natural way to do a word variance analysis would be by performing a best-fit to either a Zipfian distribution or a Zipf-Mandelbrot distribution, take advantage of the scale invariance property of such power law distributions, and then compare the fitted shape parameters, including the margin of error.

Would have to think a bit about if other methods would be actually valid and if they possess the same scale invariant properties.

[Chloe]

Tbf this entire discussion is to gauge the community’s opinion on things - we try to decide our policies based on what the mass majority of people prefer as we can, and also what would make the most people happy and comfortable

Opinions are welcome in this threadze

[May]

Here’s my program that can gauge a player’s alignment with 75% accuracy. I expect my ban to be processed within the hour.

print("town")

[Zugzwang]

I apply this program every time I read May

[Arete]

brb testing this on Jungle of Bullshit

[Arete]

wtf this was barely half as accurate as you said it would be

[benguinedparbecue]

brb testing this on BOTC

[benguinedparbecue]

wtf town isn’t even alignment. 75% accuracy my ass

[Lumi]

Angleshooting and OGI have game integrity issues, which is a different topic.

Banning certain kinds of AtE is a better comparison, and yeah, I agree that certain things that suck to play with should be banned. But it depends on why they suck to play with. AtE sucks to play with because it tends to be very emotional and damaging to out-of-game mental health. Statistical arguments do not have that same effect.

You not wanting to have to argue about someone’s statistics is valid. But it doesn’t have the same issues that certain kinds of AtE have.

[tutuu]

(im so surprised this thread blew up)

[Zugzwang]

nya hi tutuu

[Zugzwang]

in reality I’m automating all the posts here

[YoubutWorse]

knew it

[Lumi]

I should stop posting here
I need to focus on mash balance, brb requesting self-ban

[Chloe]

if you’re being serious you can set the thread to muted and it will magically disappear

[orangeandblack5]

This is basically RWSTFO

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

my god