real
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Oh THAT’S why I specifically had a ton of fucked up timestamps, I edit posts a lot
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Are we all in agreement that mafia should not be influenced at all, directly or indirectly, by programming skills?
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I’m gonna go out on a limb and say no?
like yeah obviously we don’t want it to be a coding challenge, but I think going too far in the other direction is possible and I believe outright banning stuff like this entirely is in fact that
for example
I think analyzing timestamps is a valid part of FM gameplay
a program that pulls that information and compiles it for you seems to me to be a valid thing to create that does not leave the scope of “FM gameplay” because you are still doing the ultimate analysis and using it to build an argument that you are presenting to other real people
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In an ideal world, yes - but we have to make tradeoffs about what is allowed to influence the game.
For example, we make the tradeoff of allowing likes in games, even though there are some unfortunate results (ie, a specific player may know someone is lurking/reading up, while everyone else does not, due to notifcations).
One could also argue (as Orange has done above) that access to previous games / wolfchats shouldn’t affect the current game, but again that’s a tradeoff we have to make if we want to allow meta from there.
I feel the benefits of allowing programmed tools outweigh the negatives, especially since I have released multi-iso and vote compilation, and plan to release others once I get them polished enough.
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does that give somebody with the skills to create that program an advantage over somebody without that knowledge?
I would go so far as to say no still to that
Because somebody without those skills could use the time that was spent setting up, executing, and analyzing the results of this tool to carry on different, also completely valid analysis
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the fun thing about a messy social game like FM is that, for now, machines can’t solve it for you
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eventually they will but A that probably will require zero coding knowledge to abuse and B we can cross that bridge when we get there
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we do already disallow AI (which is probably what that would require)
you can spend the same amount of time training, working out, exercising, running, sprinting, and eating healthily as you can using steroids and hiding your steroid uses from bodybuilding competition judges
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How is this at all relevant to mafia being influenced by programming skills?
…How is it not relevant? I’m showing how allowing programmed tools is a tradeoff worth taking, just like many other tradeoffs.
You’re moving the goalposts by saying “programmed tools”.
Where did I say programmed tools?
Programmed tools are what is in question here.
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Data synthesis is unfortunately far less useful for FM than steroids are 
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You replied to my post discussing programming skills. No, you can’t move the goalposts and then try to claim you haven’t moved the goalposts.
i think its okay on a game by game basis, if the host likes it
it allows more complex things (vote tracking… vote tracking…i cant think of anything else) to be discussed that arent feasible by discourse standards
but i think it should be avaliable to everyone because fm is a game about social deduction and not getting a degree or using steroids
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I don’t think you’re following - possibly because I wasn’t talking to you.
I’m raising an issue with orange’s belief that non-disclosed, programmable tools should be allowed.
The topic I was discussing - programming skills affecting mafia - is linked to orange’s belief because tools being non-disclosed and not public makes your ability to develop these tools influence the game of mafia as you would have better ability to process & compile information using the tools you have developed.
If you disclose the tools, your ability to program doesn’t influence the game of mafia since you (without breaking the rules) cannot develop and use any tools that other people can’t
You started talking about making tradeoffs for likes which everyone has access to and has nothing to do with programming skills influencing mafia, and then access to wolfchats which also has nothing to do with progamming skills influencing mafia, and then talking about publicly released programming tools which have nothing to do with programming skills influencing mafia
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you may be doing the analysis, but a computer is doing the compiling for you, and can do it much faster than a human brain.
if other people don’t have access to this same tool, they are at a disadvantage because even though they can see the timestamps, they don’t have the ability to compile them to nearly the same extent
i’d definitely consider this somebody having an advantage because of programming skills
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So where were you planning to go from here:
The conclusion relevant to this thread would be along the lines of “Because of this ideal that mafia shouldn’t be influenced by programming skills, programmed tools should not be allowed”. Which is what I was arguing against. I did agree that in an ideal world yes, mafia shouldn’t be influenced by programming skills.
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