Wrogn 2 - MAFIA VICTORY

[soweli]

can I guess (I guess myself)

[soweli]

actually i think tutuu’s problem with me is that I haven’t real-timed enough.

[Zugzwang]

oh I didn’t mean who I want to vote
I meant, what I am considering saying next / where I want to bring the conversation

[tutuu]

I don’t, because I don’t consciously think about what you’d say next. I will oblige your request to make a guess. My guess is that you will now townread me. The reason I think that is because I know I’m town, I think I’m towny for being transparent and putting in the effort to communicate, and part of me wants to not give up on you and consider you could be town, and if you are, I am expecting / hoping that you would find me as town.

[tutuu]

I am biased knowing my alignment, so I don’t know how I come off from a 3rd pov. With that bias in mind, I think that it’s very unreasonable to scumread me after Ishmael’s flip. I was scumread on D1 because people pre-flipped Ishmael wolf and thought I’m her wolf teammate defending her. I defended her and she still died. She flipped town. And I am still considered to be possibly be mafia. It’s like Ishmael’s flip made no relevance. I don’t recommend doing that. (That is, if there aren’t other reasons for scumreading me. If there are others, then fair enough. I just didn’t see any. It is not impossible that I missed them. I read all posts from today but I meant, not register them in my head.)

[Zugzwang]

@tutuu

I think that soweli is mafia, other than my D1 reasons, but also because she feels like an overly perfect townie. It comes off as insincere to me. She is remaining completely calm and not frustrated at being pushed by multiple people for shaky reasons. She is ignoring most of it. I’m feeling like she is desynchronized from the thread. She made a burst of reads and gave some thoughts earlier. It is generally what is expected and required of townies. But I don’t think the behavior is typical. At least, not her presentation of it. (which is just my opinion, on how her presentation comes off as) (I’m elaborating this because I disdain it when people assert and word their opinions as facts).

Going back to my Ishmael read. Ishmael playing like a textbook town when she’s mafia, comes off as a perfect but hollow doll. Does what people want of her. They don’t kill her and she wins. Ishmael as town - does what she wants. Disregards her life. Doesn’t mind dying or being scumread. This behavior is not wanted from towns, but it is very typical of towns. It is very often seen from towns. People are less perfect as town.

I’m not seeing soweli’s soul, is what I’m saying. She feels empty inside. I am sorry if she is town, she is perfectly valid for doing her thing then, if she is town. I want to emphasize that this is just my attempt at solving her. I haven’t played with her before so if this is who she is then this is who she is and I will then know that my guess was wrong.

nyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa tutuu hacking into my mind thtbhtbthbthbthbthtb and making a hedgy / “I might be wrong post” now

one of the things I’ve found wolfy from you today is the apparent confidence, which contrasts a lot from you yesterday

Yesterday (and also to some amount, in your usual play) you were a bottom who had to be coached by May to have any confidence, and you downplayed your EOD readslist even as you made it.

Today you open much more confident and serious, which feels like you’re taking the opportunity to push agenda (which fits with killing May, since they were the one most in the way of the way of that IMO, and also fits with immediately talking about the nightkill and using it as a jumping-off point to do agenda).

Upon going back to get quotes, this is less severe than I remembered it (and yeah you did just make a hedgy post now) but it still feels strange

---

So - why are you much more confident today? (I’m aware flips contribute somewhat, but they don’t do that much, and in my impression of your usual play you’re not usually this confident D2)

[Kyubey]

I’m kyubey. I’m cuter than Litten.

[Zugzwang]

@tutuu

I don’t, because I don’t consciously think about what you’d say next. I will oblige your request to make a guess. My guess is that you will now townread me. The reason I think that is because I know I’m town, I think I’m towny for being transparent and putting in the effort to communicate, and part of me wants to not give up on you and consider you could be town, and if you are, I am expecting / hoping that you would find me as town.

NYAAAAAAAAA I had meant in my questions to Soweli
(which tbhtbthbthbt is somewhat implied by “where I want to go here” - since that wording indicates I have something in mind; if I had been at a townread on you I’d probably have posted it already)

[Kyubey]

It turns out the way to pocket zug is to overly focus a read on them for no reason day one

[tutuu]

Hm maybe you’re good after all. This post is very in depth. Good as in town I meant.

@Zugzwang

making a hedgy / “I might be wrong post” now

I do this out of politeness. I hate rudeness. I hate it when people assert things. For instance I hate the sentence “This is a scummy post”. It sounds like saying an undeniable fact. It’s not. It’s an opinion. I make sure to elaborate my opinions as opinions, and facts as facts. The only facts I’ve given out, that I can remember, is stuff like “town players are more chaotic than wolves”. I said this a bit earlier. Most of the other time I’m sharing opinions. I feel frustrated when people word their opinions as facts so I avoid doing it myself.

There are also times where I am not confident in my accuracy as a separate thing. But the thing I think that you’re talking about is this (what I wrote about above).

@Zugzwang

one of the things I’ve found wolfy from you today is the apparent confidence, which contrasts a lot from you yesterday

May commanded me to be confident and unafraid. I love following orders more than anything in the world. So I decided I will do my best to do what she wanted of me.

@Zugzwang

Today you open much more confident and serious

I was reinvigorated seeing Ishmael flip town. I had to fight tooth and nail to try to defend her. Even she turned against me. It felt like a nightmare. And then seeing that I was right felt like waking up and feeling better.

I don’t think that I have asserted things today. Just shared my opinions. I decided to speak more directly and less bottomy because of May.

[Kyubey]

@Zugzwang

Yesterday (and also to some amount, in your usual play) you were a bottom who had to be coached by May

Oh wow even may

[Kyubey]

It’s okay everyone in the game sees you as a baby chick to protect 22

[Zugzwang]

@tutuu

I am biased knowing my alignment, so I don’t know how I come off from a 3rd pov. With that bias in mind, I think that it’s very unreasonable to scumread me after Ishmael’s flip. I was scumread on D1 because people pre-flipped Ishmael wolf and thought I’m her wolf teammate defending her. I defended her and she still died. She flipped town. And I am still considered to be possibly be mafia. It’s like Ishmael’s flip made no relevance. I don’t recommend doing that. (That is, if there aren’t other reasons for scumreading me. If there are others, then fair enough. I just didn’t see any. It is not impossible that I missed them. I read all posts from today but I meant, not register them in my head.)

there are
this one was what I was pondering (and ran out of time to type about) at EOD:

@Aleph

creature flailing is towny damn

oh well

still maintain the jester claim

UNVOTE

@tutuu

Difficult to keep voting her when she unvotes her counterwagon near EoD

UNVOTE

High probability to v/v wagons. Change course?

@Zugzwang

she would still self-pres though, presumably? at least if wolf she would and it wouldn’t look bad

@tutuu

She unvoted

@Aleph

it’s a WIFOM move that should not clear me in anyway shape or form if looked at by someone from a town POV

that’s why it felt so weird

Aleph unvoting her CW doesn’t stop her from just revoting later, which means it doesn’t hurt w!Aleph. No one is going to go “oh that self-pres vote was wolfy. She shouldn’t have self-pressed”.

Even when people point this out to you, you don’t seem to realize or consider it? You’re townreading something that can appear superficially towny, but isn’t if you just stop and think about it; it feels like TMI.

[Kyubey]

About 3 hours till I start playing the game. I mean, I’ve been playing my game, but still.

[Zugzwang]

@Kyubey

It turns out the way to pocket zug is to overly focus a read on them for no reason day one

I’m assuming this is in reference to Spooky
Spooky knows me a lot better than he knows other players here (I invited him to play this)
He (partially jokingly) claims to have a godread on me
also his read on me wasn’t the whole reason I townread him (probably less than 50% thbthtbhtbhtb)

[SirDerpsAlot]

@tutuu

I do this out of politeness. I hate rudeness. I hate it when people assert things. For instance I hate the sentence “This is a scummy post”. It sounds like saying an undeniable fact. It’s not. It’s an opinion. I make sure to elaborate my opinions as opinions, and facts as facts. The only facts I’ve given out, that I can remember, is stuff like “town players are more chaotic than wolves”. I said this a bit earlier. Most of the other time I’m sharing opinions. I feel frustrated when people word their opinions as facts so I avoid doing it myself.

this is a scummy post

[tutuu]

@Zugzwang

Aleph unvoting her CW doesn’t stop her from just revoting later, which means it doesn’t hurt w!Aleph. No one is going to go “oh that self-pres vote was wolfy. She shouldn’t have self-pressed”.

Even when people point this out to you, you don’t seem to realize or consider it? You’re townreading something that can appear superficially towny, but isn’t if you just stop and think about it; it feels like TMI.

I made a read on her that she wrote that post as town. That she was town in that specific instance, in this game, and she wrote that post, with those exact letters and tone that she did. That’s literally it. I’m not going to blame myself for other people being close minded. Maybe I didn’t clarify my thinking enough and it comes off differently from a 3rd pov. I’m not a 3rd pov so I don’t know. But deciding that other people shouldn’t be able to get reads off of things is very silly to me. Mafia is a very complex game. Communication can be difficult. People can lie about their reasonings to reaction test too, as a side. All of this sounds to me “Just don’t make reads. You could be wrong. You never know. Nothing is certain.” Nothing is certain by design. That doesn’t mean I’m going to heed this advice and listen to people telling me what I should be making reads off of and what not. If I were to listen to it’s like I am listening to the best mafia player in the world who cannot be wrong and is always right. Nobody here is the best mafia player in the world.

She could have revoted. But I decided she couldn’t, because I decided that post coming from her made her town. If I don’t decide things I may as well not participate in the game.

[tutuu]

It is possible that I was anti-tunneled. I was tunneled on her being town. So it is possible I wasn’t being reasonable about that. I don’t know.

[tutuu]

If I don’t make an attempt to save my townreads I might as well not have an impact and not participate in the game. I decided that I will be participating in this one.

[tutuu]

No, I don’t think I was being unreasonable. “She could have re-voted” - OK, by this logic, I should not townread a player for making a towny post, because they could make a scummy post after.