Arete basically described what I wanted to say
This is a very good point. I donât think this game was within what the site as a whole was expecting. I think it speaks positively to the diversity of the siteâs players and hosts that we have a large variety of styles of designs here and that people can enjoy more behavioural games or more mechanical games.
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I have already acknowledged that I should have asked Eli about it more explicitly but I believe that I had assumed when balancing that it was the plan.
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And strengthening the setup to argue its balanced is inherently flawed, because its giving town an increased ability to stop mafia killpower and add town killpower, whereas mafia doesnât have any roles like that so strengthening them has a less direct mechanical boost
D6
That is all that needs to be said regarding game balance
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I mean no offense, Iâm sure your likely a ton more experienced in reviewing and stuff
But when people join a game, theyâre likely looking for things theyâve played before and have a simple grasp on, which is where 3 wolves weak town roles strong wolves can be fine, or 3 wolves 1 lost wolf
4 wolves and weak town roles wasnât expected because this site uh
doesnât have a super good win rate as town
Its probably going to result in a wolf win to start with, before all the big plays from wolves come
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Yes they played better than us and deserved the win more than we did
But it was still inherently bad for town
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I think that hereâs the clincher in terms of the balance part (not saying anything about any of the other aspects of the game)
a 1-shot vigilante is far more likely to proc than a vengeful, since they can claim to avoid the block without nerfing most of their utility (only proccing on a guaranteed ML). Additionally, if unccâd, they can gain IC status that a vengeful never can.
a doctor is far more likely to proc than a bulletproof, since they can choose a player instead of trying to be super townread on their own, and even can proc more than one time. Both bulletproof and doctor can gain town-ish status for proccing, and doctor is much more likely to do so.
I agree that that setup looks significantly more like what people were roughly expecting balance-wise going into it, but i do think that those changes add a pretty solid amount of utility on the town side and not quite that much on the mafia side at a glance.
nya
im always interested to compare peopleâs ideas of balance because itâs so rich and multi-faceted of an idea
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11v4 is perfect numbers
For rolemadness
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4 mafia double nightkillers 11 ic declared d1
This setup had cool town bulletproof and mafia copycat and thatâs all that matters
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its also my third time randing Bulletproof in a row smh
The world wants you to live
Embrace your calling
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but overall i do definitely agree that this game was more of a behaviorally focused game than a mechanically focused game and thatâs also not a bad thing, though perhaps again not what people were expecting
perhaps a general advertised power level on games would be a somewhat decent idea? thatâs what Iâm doing from now on at least, because the term âspecialâ is so broad that it becomes not super meaningful in the types of games and experiences you get
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I generally advise against this
Instead of role quality, talking about role quantity is generally better for fm
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So rolemadness / somewhere in between / mostly vanilla / literally just closed mountainous
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sigh
Letâs back down from this and agree to be civil please? Nobody other than you has gone on the aggressive like this here.
I donât agree that this game was mechanically locked at strictly outside the range of reasonable EV for winrates. It may not be 50/50, but to ensure that to the degree that you seem to potentially desire, particularly in a game with randomness, would have taken a lot more time than Iâve ever seen any reviewer (or even quite possibly any host) spend on a sub-18p setup, especially on FoL. Not to talk down on the site or the game, but like, Dicey Dungeons isnât a multi-year meticulous role madness game design. And the consensus from the players does not seem to be âThis game sucked to play.â
As a general piece of design advice from someone much more experienced than I amâŚ
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this is kinda what i was referring to
something to distinguish a game like this or scpfm that was âsomewhat vanillaâ as opposed to a more mechanics-oriented âmostly roles but a few vanillasâ game which can be about as different experiences as a vanilla setup is to a CoD game
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i got lucky
role design 4/10 game playability 6/10
which is above average