Netrunner Mafia - Game Over: Mala Tempora

[Arctic]

@Ashlyn

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that there aren’t three wolves in guava, magnus, dum/wazza, and squirrel, which means im assuming that there’s at least one wolf in this trio of 3

why
i could unironically see the last 3 names being a scumteam

@Ashlyn

beyond this, there has to be scum motivation. scum has to have someone they want to save in order to move votes this drastically. looking at the previous top wagons, there were: Kanave, Flygon, and Squirrel. So, I’m going to say at least one of these is scum.

i don’t think i agree with this on principle. i think kanave and flygon are both town - this means mostly villagers were being wagoned and people who can be proven to actually care about what was going on at eod are more likely to be town

@Ashlyn

despite this
there were two nightkills last night
and i really, really want to believe that there wouldnt be extra wolf kp in the setup
but a 1-shot kp is not impossible
so
@kanave
if you want me to not hardtunnel you into the fucking ground today, im going to want a full roleclaim and full accountability for any potential future shots ASAP

…lol this is towny
but can we like, not have them full claim
i think wolves just don’t get kp in a low powered 13’er without town having kp… and that’s basically enough for me.

i think your post is kinda making too many assumptions on what wolves were doing without any real proof so it’s hard for me to act on anything in this yet, but i do think if flygon is a wolf then it may hold some merit

@Vulgard

I wanted to know why you felt like it might be possible. As in, that you’re wrong on everything. What are your reads rn, really?

dunno. initially thought because of the caspore kill maybe? they were pushing guava after all. not acting on this because it was probably a PR read kill since not many people would kill newbtown just because they are scared of their social pressure since they had little influence

@Vulgard

You were cutting Shending a lot of slack and it looked like you were taking every opportunity not to vote him, which is what made me think this was W/W. Shending dying obviously takes that off the table, but this doesn’t look like you have any urgency in solving him. Some of the questions you ask him don’t even make sense to ask if you don’t expect both of you to be alive the next day and for him to answer them at that point. Like: “shending if you’re town, these wagons were probably v/v. does knowing this make anything more obvious?” shouldn’t be a question you ask when solving a slot with urgency, and there should’ve been urgency when it was EOD…

well. i didn’t really feel like he was scum. especially after your point on him was proven wrong when he said that he’s often incorrectly scumread for only making townreads. i asked him about his perspective on the wagons because a lot of the time villagers can make their alignment obvious from how they solve the game knowing that they are town / the wagons were town. may have got something out of it that would have made me confident enough to go out of my way and save him.

@Vulgard

I don’t get why, that’s the thing. It’s like in Arctic’s eyes, Flygon’s posts never developed since the starting point. The starting point wasn’t very good, I had no read there for a while. But I do think he substantially improved. But Arctic’s read didn’t seem to change and he was still actively refusing to do anything.

did you not read my big response to you?.. i explained why i was happy to let him die lol. i’m not proud about it if he’s town, but i’ll reiterate that it’s hard for me to actively go out of my way to save someone who’s been pushing me for bad faith reasons and calling for a CFD on me. i wasn’t encouraging votes on him nor voting him - that would be policy, and i’m against that, but at the same time i was perfectly happy to let him die with the way he was playing. you can call this wolfy if you want, but just recognize that me not trying to save him was not because i thought he was a wolf.

@Vulgard

@Arctic What did you think about Squirrel there?

literally nothing. i thought he was rand. i thought kiling eliza, who was also more or less rand, would yield more information.

[guavagudetama]

Like I said a couple messages I think Squirrel literally not contributing anything but still posting feels… bad. Not necessarily wolf bad just it doesn’t feel great to see because he’s getting sussed based on almost no information.

[guavagudetama]

@Vulgard

Rn I definitely think Flygon is town

@Ashlyn Do you think Vulgard/Flygon is plausible?
When Vulgard talks to me about Arctic it feels townie but every time he brings up Flygon my brain is screaming every word it can think of to signify the evil team in a social deduction game

[Vulgard]

@Arctic

@Vulgard

You were cutting Shending a lot of slack and it looked like you were taking every opportunity not to vote him, which is what made me think this was W/W. Shending dying obviously takes that off the table, but this doesn’t look like you have any urgency in solving him. Some of the questions you ask him don’t even make sense to ask if you don’t expect both of you to be alive the next day and for him to answer them at that point. Like: “shending if you’re town, these wagons were probably v/v. does knowing this make anything more obvious?” shouldn’t be a question you ask when solving a slot with urgency, and there should’ve been urgency when it was EOD…

well. i didn’t really feel like he was scum. especially after your point on him was proven wrong when he said that he’s often incorrectly scumread for only making townreads. i asked him about his perspective on the wagons because a lot of the time villagers can make their alignment obvious from how they solve the game knowing that they are town / the wagons were town. may have got something out of it that would have made me confident enough to go out of my way and save him.

@Vulgard

I don’t get why, that’s the thing. It’s like in Arctic’s eyes, Flygon’s posts never developed since the starting point. The starting point wasn’t very good, I had no read there for a while. But I do think he substantially improved. But Arctic’s read didn’t seem to change and he was still actively refusing to do anything.

did you not read my big response to you?.. i explained why i was happy to let him die lol. i’m not proud about it if he’s town, but i’ll reiterate that it’s hard for me to actively go out of my way to save someone who’s been pushing me for bad faith reasons and calling for a CFD on me. i wasn’t encouraging votes on him nor voting him - that would be policy, and i’m against that, but at the same time i was perfectly happy to let him die with the way he was playing. you can call this wolfy if you want, but just recognize that me not trying to save him was not because i thought he was a wolf.

@Vulgard

@Arctic What did you think about Squirrel there?

literally nothing. i thought he was rand. i thought kiling eliza, who was also more or less rand, would yield more information.

I’m satisfied with this for now.
The take on Squirrel vs Eliza is also why I voted the way I did, for whatever that’s worth.

[Vulgard]

@guavagudetama

Do you think Vulgard/Flygon is plausible?
When Vulgard talks to me about Arctic it feels townie but every time he brings up Flygon my brain is screaming every word it can think of to signify the evil team in a social deduction game

1. I think town messed up bigtime yesterday. I don’t think we wagoned a wolf unless the wolf was exactly Squirrel, and he only got 2 votes, one of which was super late into EoD and not followed at all.
2. Based on my experience with Flygon, the way he has played more recently is a way in which he plays as town, not as mafia.
3. I asked for recent experiences with wolf!Flygon that are making you think otherwise. Or does the wolfread not factor in personal experience at all and is more of an objective thing?

[Ashlyn]

@Arctic

@Ashlyn

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that there aren’t three wolves in guava, magnus, dum/wazza, and squirrel, which means im assuming that there’s at least one wolf in this trio of 3

why
i could unironically see the last 3 names being a scumteam

because then there’s no real logic behind… all of the bullshit of eod?
.
.
.
like, i know we’re on fol but??? just??? god i really fucking hope we didnt all just decide to fucking hop on a dead horse of our own volition

@Arctic

@Ashlyn

beyond this, there has to be scum motivation. scum has to have someone they want to save in order to move votes this drastically. looking at the previous top wagons, there were: Kanave, Flygon, and Squirrel. So, I’m going to say at least one of these is scum.

i don’t think i agree with this on principle. i think kanave and flygon are both town - this means mostly villagers were being wagoned and people who can be proven to actually care about what was going on at eod are more likely to be town

on
on wh
on what principle tho

@Arctic

but can we like, not have them full claim

i really honestly think its necessary
every single logical thing i can think of is telling me that kanave is scum
i need a good
like
a very good reason
to not vote them here

@Arctic

i think wolves just don’t get kp in a low powered 13’er without town having kp… and that’s basically enough for me.

thats
possible
if it exists it could come with downsides, such as a 1-shot and no other mafia abilities able to be used that night or something idk im not a game balancer
i. dont really know?
its just really hard to fathom being incorrect here

@Arctic

i asked him about his perspective on the wagons because a lot of the time villagers can make their alignment obvious from how they solve the game knowing that they are town / the wagons were town. may have got something out of it that would have made me confident enough to go out of my way and save him.

@Arctic

shending if you’re town, these wagons were probably v/v. does knowing this make anything more obvious?

this still confuses me
i dont… i dont get why or how youre so confident on these being town and its making me incredibly fucking concerned, arc

[Vulgard]

I feel like we should consolidate a bit because screaming our reads at each other isn’t going to help, there have been like 4 pet tunnels this game and 2 of them are from me. I’m part of the problem.

@NinjaPenguin Please elaborate on your current reads, you only seem to have one right now and it’s on someone I townread. I’ll need convincing.
@guavagudetama Similar thing here, I want you to elaborate on why you think Flygon is a wolf.
@Ashlyn What scum was Flygon supposedly saving yesterday? I guess it works with your “Kanave 1-shot wolf vig” theory, but if you take the claim at face value, do you have any other reason to wolfread him?

I honestly never defended the player behind Flygon before as much as I’m doing it here, but I really feel like he’s been towny for his standards and somehow it’s not being recognized, and gamestate is warping around pushes on him which I think are wrong… I don’t even think this is a Lemonfairy situation where I just lock the read in and don’t re-evaluate for a while like a fool, this is a read I developed over time as he had a constant upward trajectory in towniness imo.

I don’t want to be too obstinate here, so I’ll be open to discussing this. There is time.

[guavagudetama]

@Vulgard

I asked for recent experiences with wolf!Flygon that are making you think otherwise. Or does the wolfread not factor in personal experience at all and is more of an objective thing?

I literally have no clue who Flygon is, I’m trying to play objectively but I’m not going to act as if emotions have never influenced my votes considering my vote is currently on myself because I “felt stupid”
So I’m trying not to factor in personal experience but I can’t control my subconscious that’s like the subconscious’s whole thing it’s subconscious

[Vulgard]

I’m not asking you not to listen to your gut, that’s not what I was trying to say at all. I just need concrete reasons for Flygon being mafia right now, because I really don’t think he is and that’s influencing my worldview a decent amount. I want to understand the wolfreads.

[Vulgard]

You could say I’m listening to my own gut by defending Flygon. A lot of what I’m talking about with him is meta-influenced, the rest is gamestate analysis and, well, a strong gut feeling that he was breaking down because he’s town and not because he’s mafia trying to desperately trying to push the yeet around. It didn’t seem like the latter.

[guavagudetama]

@Vulgard

Similar thing here, I want you to elaborate on why you think Flygon is a wolf.

@Vulgard

I just need concrete reasons for Flygon being mafia right now

at the beginning they seemed like they would just latch onto anyone who seemed townie enough. I want to go back and find it now but it really felt like they were only pushing Eliza because I was and when I said that they suddenly stopped following me and jumped to someone else.

they really want everyone to trust them to the point where it seems like they’re just trying to gaslight people into thinking they’re town. Also they just really wanna garner trust in general which tbf it was EoD.

they talk as if they know better than us which feels very manipulative and wolfy

those are the main things I’ve been thinking about

[Ashlyn]

@guavagudetama

@Vulgard

Rn I definitely think Flygon is town

@Ashlyn Do you think Vulgard/Flygon is plausible?
When Vulgard talks to me about Arctic it feels townie but every time he brings up Flygon my brain is screaming every word it can think of to signify the evil team in a social deduction game

… honestly not really? i actually kinda forgot vul was in the game for a sec which was certainly a moment
flygon/vulgard doesnt really make sense with my eod-fuckery theory because vul voted with like
less than half a minute left
i will skim iso real quick though

@Vulgard

I’ll take a look at that later, but I am a really bad Eliza reader so I likely won’t do anything regardless of conclusion lol. You can push her if you want but I don’t have an opinion.

@Vulgard

Eliza interprets an evident joke from Kanave as a wolfread and calls the “read” made up. Squirrel apparently also thinks the post Kanave made was made up (??) and asks Eliza if Kanave making up reads is wolfy (???). Eliza says yes, because obviously making up reads is all the wolves do, and right now you two are… surprised??

@Vulgard

I guess the most likely person to be a wolf here would be Eliza for misinterpreting in the first place, but this seems like a dumb and giant misunderstanding to me, to the point that people misunderstanding seem like villagers - for seemingly not being malicious and because they are genuinely making this more confusing than it needs to be.

@Vulgard

Eliza feels like a coinflip, as usual to me. I genuinely have no clue how to read her. What she did here seems like a complete mess on her part and I could interpret it both ways (just like I think Arctic described it?).

@Vulgard

I’m completely blanking on Caspore and Flygon.

@Vulgard

I have absolutely no opinion about Ashlyn’s reads, other than “those are certainly vastly different wolfreads than mine. Hm.” I want to give her some credit because she’s been good in terms of D1 accuracy as of late. Maybe one in Flygon/Kanave?

@Vulgard

Eliza I feel much worse about after verifying that she didn’t actually make as much of an impact as I thought she did.

@Vulgard

Since my read on Eliza is bad, I’m choosing to go with the other option.

@Vulgard

I’m certainly interested in your Flygon thoughts because their posting has changed significantly since the last time you were here.

@Vulgard

There’s a voice in the back of my head screaming that maybe we should kill Eliza, and another voice screaming “you have literally never caught her.”

@Vulgard

I honestly think Flygon feels a bit isolated in the thread, and their appeal to people asking them to play the game more meaningfully seemed too randomly desperate to have come from a wolf.

@Vulgard

Arctic, what did the person behind Flygon do in a recent wolfgame of theirs that is making you not townread what they’re doing?

@Vulgard

I want to turbo Eliza for this vote but it’s Eliza.

@Vulgard

I beg you to explain how because I really don’t know why people think this. Arctic is also now trying to convince me he wasn’t actually wolfreading Flygon, or at least that he changed his mind, even though he just wrote two big paragraphs about why Flygon is mafia and why their behavior here is different from how they react to being pushed as town.

I’m going Flygon basically ~never here. Your treatment of their slot is bad and even if I’m generous to Arctic it felt like he “realized” late.

@Vulgard

You know, I actually don’t hate this argument but I don’t think it applies here.

Anyone other than Flygon you’d go for?

just quoting everything relevant here
uhhh
vul certainly has no lack of thoughts on eliza and flygon but
@Vulgard im very confused
i know you were against flygon in part because of eliza’s read on them, but now that eliza’s flipped town, does that change anything? what about my read on them? multiple times d1 you mentioned the accuracy of my early reads and the like and yet you seem to be paying them very little heed even though ive now actually shared them

[Vulgard]

@Ashlyn

i really honestly think its necessary
every single logical thing i can think of is telling me that kanave is scum
i need a good
like
a very good reason
to not vote them here

I do think Kanave claiming her shot is a good idea at least. Removes ambiguity.

[guavagudetama]

@guavagudetama

they talk as if they know better than us

like why do you think you know better? do you know the wolves or smthn? /j

[Vulgard]

@guavagudetama

at the beginning they seemed like they would just latch onto anyone who seemed townie enough. I want to go back and find it now but it really felt like they were only pushing Eliza because I was and when I said that they suddenly stopped following me and jumped to someone else.

they really want everyone to trust them to the point where it seems like they’re just trying to gaslight people into thinking they’re town. Also they just really wanna garner trust in general which tbf it was EoD.

they talk as if they know better than us which feels very manipulative and wolfy

Flygon has an ego, though I’ve never seen them be manipulative. More “I HAVE THE GOD SOLVE.”
Do you have any examples of the first part that you can point out to me?

[Vulgard]

@Ashlyn

… honestly not really? i actually kinda forgot vul was in the game for a sec which was certainly a moment

I should d2 you, then I’ll be 2/2 on voting out people who forgot about my existence.

[Ashlyn]

@Vulgard

@Ashlyn What scum was Flygon supposedly saving yesterday? I guess it works with your “Kanave 1-shot wolf vig” theory, but if you take the claim at face value, do you have any other reason to wolfread him?

they could be saving themself, squirrel, or kanave, like i said. even if not kanave, their play doesnt seem town-motivated and there are still other options available
another wolf being on the wagon with them in this case could make sense for why eod was such a clusterfuck

[Ashlyn]

already wanted to d1 me
might as well try again

[guavagudetama]

@Vulgard

Do you have any examples of the first part that you can point out to me?

sobs in now I have to ISO Flygon
brb

[Vulgard]

@Ashlyn

i know you were against flygon in part because of eliza’s read on them, but now that eliza’s flipped town, does that change anything? what about my read on them? multiple times d1 you mentioned the accuracy of my early reads and the like and yet you seem to be paying them very little heed even though ive now actually shared them

Yeah, I’m starting to notice that. I’m trying to dial the Flygon thing back despite still believing he’s town.

Eliza flipping town doesn’t really change my Flygon take, to be honest. I felt like he was treated uncharitably and this opinion only grew stronger overnight, which is why it might potentially be obnoxious now. I’m sorry.