i thought we only considered them bastard if you had no inclination that one might exist
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mmmmmmmm.
Bastard feels like it’s trying to be a one-size-fits-all term when it… can’t be. It might be better to have multiple categories of mechanics that, if in play, must be disclosed in the OP
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Think we assumed that 3p meant it wouldn’t be game over anyway, and wanted to make sure we didn’t go into the next day outed as a group.
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see now that I’m writing about it there’s no mechanically difference between a show stopper and sultan just being an unstoppable arsonist who doused everyone but
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Ye that’s the conundrum. If all 3ps are expected to be non-lethal, then nobody bats an eye at trusting them within a certain span. But if a lot of 3ps are SKs, then they’re going to be autoyeeted on reveal most of the time.
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The problem this game wasn’t even neutral, towm straight up couldn’t afford to kill the neutral when he claimed and mafia didn’t have any way to deal with them besides shooting them twice which is inefficient
Mafia played very well early on and put them and the neutral into a dominant position but the town landed one hit at the mafia and the neutral was almost always winnintbhefaueebifbthat
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how
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(off topic from the current topic, but)
personally the game ending unexpectedly is much less frustrating to me than false peeks. the former im just “iight” and move on. the latter incentivizes toxicity between players
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Yeah I agree with Zug. Bastard is too overarching a term. Basically means “things considered unacceptable unless expected”, and what exactly carries the baggage of being “expected” depends too heavily on the site for it to be universal and therefore it to be a fully unambiguous/useful term.
Like, I cannot tell you the last game on Nintendo Loop that did not have a Godfather. All games on Loop carry with them an implicit note of “you might get false negatives on your investigative notes!”, and therefore it’s not bastard to put a Godfather there, even if you forget to mention it outright.
A showstopper 3P is the exact kind of thing where, like… whether it is “bastard” depends heavily on the standards and expectations of the site. If it’s run in a community there’s one in every game, then everybody will know to play around it and will have a perfectly normal time playing mafia. If it’s run on a community where it’s not expected, people won’t know to play around it and will have a bad time.
“Bastard” is still a helpful enough vibecheck for how Fair the host feels their game is, but I think it’s valuable for hosts to basically… define bastard as they say it, so that it doesn’t fall to players to litigate exactly what the host feels is or is not bastard, because that’s so subjective.
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imo neutral shouldn’t have been poison mmunw
that’s the only balance complaint I think
think it’s kinda unfair oh wait the mafia literally had a rolecop that could check the win con
what did the witch do
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how do they incentivize toxicity? I come from a site that has many false investigations and it’s fine
derp didn’t even have a cop check on Kiiruma right
no
there was no mech there
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My definition of bastard, as I’ve learned it, mostly means “is this role theoretically fun for all the players involved in the game”.
Hence Jester being bastard, because it actively incentivizes poor play or even annoying or aggravating play, to be voted out faster. ToS has the issue of pretty much all Jesters being either silent, or trolls. There’s not really a good way to get voted out consistently otherwise.
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Everything else that doesn’t hit that particular point, at least that I can think of, feels more like site culture.
eg a player being an unaware miller. cop scans them red. he claims red. the former believes the other is fpsing a red on them. it can break relationships or at the very least mean words can be exchanged
or a godfather being peeked green. players spend 2 weeks playing the game on forum, then lose and feel mislead by the host. can break the relationship between host and players
“This game is non-bastard”, IMO, ideally should carry with it, like, a list of what that means, like, one example would be:
- All rolecards and flips will be truthful, but may have information hidden
- Investigative abilities will generally return true information unless redirected
- Mafia and town have [x standard win condition], third parties may or may not exist, and may or may not end the game on winning
- etc etc et al you get the point I’m bored.
Basically, if you think a mechanic is off reasonable limits, say it, don’t imply it. This won’t always work, sometimes your players will think of things you won’t, or vice versa, but I think it minimises these kinda issues.
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we need more unaware death millers
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FMPOV jesters aren’t bastard they just suck. I come from a community where it was once standard to have a jester in every game. Then we all decided we hated them and stopped using them. This is because we are wise
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