I do want to ask though, what exactly do we consider bastard. This was brought up in spectator chat but different sites have different definitions, but personally I consider a neutral whos win condition is not pubicilly known, aka a showstopper, bastard
1 Like
apparently zone made a mistake iirc
he said d4 should have been mylo
3 Likes
i consider bastard host lying to the players
as long as it isnt a lie, it might be frustrating, but i wont call it bastard
for instance putting in a godfather in a closed setup without giving a hint there might be one
some communities commonly run godfather to the point itâs not bastard because itâs a sitewide expectation, disclaimer
*who ends the game automatically by their exisitance
1 Like
I agree this works in some but not all
We commonly consider jesters, esp showstopper jesters, bastard
i thought we only considered them bastard if you had no inclination that one might exist
2 Likes
mmmmmmmm.
Bastard feels like itâs trying to be a one-size-fits-all term when it⌠canât be. It might be better to have multiple categories of mechanics that, if in play, must be disclosed in the OP
-
3 Likes
Think we assumed that 3p meant it wouldnât be game over anyway, and wanted to make sure we didnât go into the next day outed as a group.
2 Likes
see now that Iâm writing about it thereâs no mechanically difference between a show stopper and sultan just being an unstoppable arsonist who doused everyone but
1 Like
Ye thatâs the conundrum. If all 3ps are expected to be non-lethal, then nobody bats an eye at trusting them within a certain span. But if a lot of 3ps are SKs, then theyâre going to be autoyeeted on reveal most of the time.
4 Likes
The problem this game wasnât even neutral, towm straight up couldnât afford to kill the neutral when he claimed and mafia didnât have any way to deal with them besides shooting them twice which is inefficient
Mafia played very well early on and put them and the neutral into a dominant position but the town landed one hit at the mafia and the neutral was almost always winnintbhefaueebifbthat
5 Likes
how
6 Likes
(off topic from the current topic, but)
personally the game ending unexpectedly is much less frustrating to me than false peeks. the former im just âiightâ and move on. the latter incentivizes toxicity between players
1 Like
Yeah I agree with Zug. Bastard is too overarching a term. Basically means âthings considered unacceptable unless expectedâ, and what exactly carries the baggage of being âexpectedâ depends too heavily on the site for it to be universal and therefore it to be a fully unambiguous/useful term.
Like, I cannot tell you the last game on Nintendo Loop that did not have a Godfather. All games on Loop carry with them an implicit note of âyou might get false negatives on your investigative notes!â, and therefore itâs not bastard to put a Godfather there, even if you forget to mention it outright.
A showstopper 3P is the exact kind of thing where, like⌠whether it is âbastardâ depends heavily on the standards and expectations of the site. If itâs run in a community thereâs one in every game, then everybody will know to play around it and will have a perfectly normal time playing mafia. If itâs run on a community where itâs not expected, people wonât know to play around it and will have a bad time.
âBastardâ is still a helpful enough vibecheck for how Fair the host feels their game is, but I think itâs valuable for hosts to basically⌠define bastard as they say it, so that it doesnât fall to players to litigate exactly what the host feels is or is not bastard, because thatâs so subjective.
1 Like
imo neutral shouldnât have been poison mmunw
thatâs the only balance complaint I think
think itâs kinda unfair oh wait the mafia literally had a rolecop that could check the win con
what did the witch do
1 Like
3 Likes
how do they incentivize toxicity? I come from a site that has many false investigations and itâs fine
derp didnât even have a cop check on Kiiruma right
no
there was no mech there
1 Like
My definition of bastard, as Iâve learned it, mostly means âis this role theoretically fun for all the players involved in the gameâ.
Hence Jester being bastard, because it actively incentivizes poor play or even annoying or aggravating play, to be voted out faster. ToS has the issue of pretty much all Jesters being either silent, or trolls. Thereâs not really a good way to get voted out consistently otherwise.
4 Likes