Welcome to the Weekly* Monday** Discussion!
* Not actually weekly.
** Actually on Monday this time.
This is part of an effort to re-examine hosting standards on this site.
Hello FoLers!
On this site, we have a wealth of different hosts from different backgrounds hosting significantly different games. We believe this diversity to be a key strength of ours. However, we have found, especially recently, that these different backgrounds have created different standards on what is ‘normal’ from both hosts and reviewers. We believe that our current definition for what constitutes non-standard (otherwise known as Bastard) is not satisfactory for our community.
For one, the definition as presented does not include the Semi-Bastard designation, which is associated with mechanics that can cause the host to lie to the players (such as Godfathers) but does not feature outright lying such as telling a player they are town when they are actually mafia. The provided definition considers semi-bastard things ‘fine’ which does not seem to be a useful designation for this site.
Additionally, we have historically seen roles and mechanics intentionally meant to mislead players into making false conclusions. Wording trappings are not seen as bastard, but fit the general narrative that bastard games are ‘designed mostly for the moderator’s amusement more than that of the players’.
Thus, the moderator team has decided to have a discussion with the community about how we should define the varying degrees of bastard.
Below, I have compiled a few attempted definitions to serve as ideas and potential topics.
Osieorb’s Setup Review Guide
A. Standard - The host does not lie, but false information may occur in a reasonably expected manner, and only in regards to action results. The setup contains no alignment changes (e.g. cult), unusual wincons (e.g. jester), or traditionally unfun roles (e.g. silent, voteless, etc). I also consider it good form for a host to let the players have at least some idea of what false results the setup may contain.
B. Bastard-Lite - The host will let players know that the setup has unusual mechanics but that the host still will not lie to the players outside of when the game presents false results. Role PMs are guaranteed to be accurate outside of potentially hidden abilities (at reviewer discretion). Role Reveals (“Flips”) are guaranteed to be accurate unless the host explicitly states that they are not. Alignment changes, unusual wincons, and traditionally unfun roles may be present. (e.g. Actress, Jester, Cult, Silent, Voteless are all okay.) Jester is not bastard if people expect it. Same with Cult, same with anything else. The question is whether or not the host directly or indirectly lies to the players.
C. Bastard - The host will likely lie to the players. The players’ Role PMs may lie to the players. Roles can be anything. While running a bastard game can be fine, bastard games should still be fun. Review is less about balance at that point. Consider when someone has labeled a setup as bastard if it’s to say “I don’t care about the player experience”, if it’s to say “This game is still made to be fun but may have unusual mechanics”. All too often, hosts try to be clever by halves and just label the setup bastard so they don’t have to think too hard about balance or enjoyment of players. I recommend allowing bastard setups, but I recommend denying setups that appear to be labeled as bastard because the host is just being lazy. It can be a pleasant surprise for a new host who thought that they had to label their setup as bastard when you say “All you have to do is tell people that this role might exist.”
Notblackorwhite
Bastard is when a game (due to the host, or a mechanic) does something to make some players upset, angry, feel lied to or mislead, feel like they’ve been made to look stupid, or otherwise uncomfortable. The inclusion of the 1 or more of the following will almost certainly lead to a game being received as “bastard”:
- The host lies, misleads, misinforms, or otherwise deceives players about the game.
- The host makes decisions in that unduly favor a particular player, role, faction etc., or that are arbitrary, mean-spirited or capricious.
- Mechanics that are likely to be generally received as extremely unfun, tedious, or mean-spirited.
Explicitly warning players in the sign-ups or any public or in-game declaration that the host intends to or allows themselves to do any of the above still makes the game “bastard” even if the host never actually does any of it.
Semi-Bastard (sometimes called “Experimental”) is when a game significantly deviates from conventions regarding mechanics or host behavior, but not enough so that the general perception of it is that it’s a “bastard game”. If a game does any of the following, it should be advertised as “Semi-Bastard” or “Experimental”:
- Unconventional or rarely seen mechanics that require the host to deceive players in any way (e.g. Insane Cop) or a high volume of more conventional mechanics that require the host to deceive e.g. Godfather, Framer, Tailor, etc. Including mechanics from the former category without Semi-Bastard lableing is likely going to lead to the game being downgraded to Bastard.
- Mechanics that are conventional in certain formats, but unexpected in the kind of game advertised e.g. ITAs or events when not advertised in sign-ups.
- “Wisdom of the Mod” or “live balancing”: the host intentionally interferes in the game to prevent one side from winning too quickly. This is distinct from Bastard 2 in that the intentions are not to give one side a victory but to correct for a perceived design or factional/player skill imbalance. Exceptions are games that are inspired by systems where this is the norm e.g. BotF.
A host should always explicitly state in the sign-ups if a game may cross over the line into Semi-Bastard or Bastard. Not doing so is likely going to be considered Bastard in and of itself.
A game that is Not Bastard is one that doesn’t feature any of the above, and is highly conventional in both mechanics and host behavior.
Our goal with this thread is, ideally, to come out of this with an idea of how bastard should be defined. Our reviewer team will ultimately have differing opinions on how to interpret bastard, but a site standard will help players signing up for games to know what they are getting into regardless of the host.
