Weekly Monday Discussion #7 - Defining Bastard

[Geyde]

I also think of roles like Atlas in FAM4

@FAMHost

Adapt Philosophy
Odd Night Action — 2-shot Key
Choose 2 players to pose a hypothetical to the hosts about whose role is stronger in the current game state if they use their abilities optimally ( from the next Day and beyond ), and learn the hosts’ opinion.

do engage with wotm but are fine in mashes and larger games where that’s a theme they’re going for

[orangeandblack5]

don’t let them push you around but if they’d rather have nothing than your proposed “compensation” it’s possible ur compensation is not good for the game lol

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

I also think it’s fair for hosts to rule against RAW in favor of RAI (as long as it isnt egregious) midgame, simply because its impossible to account for every instance of that
it is also fair for hosts to end the game early, particularly in a “this game is toxicity-filled so its a draw” kind of situation
I’ve also repeatedly ended games in a scum victory if the game would be decided by the timing of like, a dayvig or a doublevoter could claw back parity. i think this is Fine (but should definitely be codified in your OP that that kind of thing can happen, which i had failed to do in the past)

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

@ElizaThePsycho

I’ve also repeatedly ended games in a scum victory if the game would be decided by the timing of like, a dayvig or a doublevoter could claw back parity. i think this is Fine (but should definitely be codified in your OP that that kind of thing can happen, which i had failed to do in the past)

this also applies to neutrals that are unlikely to result in a kingmaker resulting in a kingmaker, I think

[Geyde]

@Geyde

Alignment changes, unusual wincons, and traditionally unfun roles may be present. (e.g. Actress, Jester, Cult, Silent, Voteless are all okay.) Jester is not bastard if people expect it. Same with Cult, same with anything else. The question is whether or not the host directly or indirectly lies to the players.

(from osie’s section bastard-lite)

I feel like mechanics like this exist vaguely separate from the bastard designation since you’d ideally let people know these things may exist in advance

[orangeandblack5]

I think all of those are basically Bastard game staples tbh

[Litten]

@Geyde

Actually on Monday this time.

Can we demote Geyde

[Litten]

This is unacceptable

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

generally the host shouldn’t end the game early in a Town victory like, ever, just by nature of the Town but i can see some extreme edge case scenarios with bullshit mechanics that you failed to account for

but i think ending the game early given the correct circumstances in a draw, game canned or a victory for Mafia is Fine
but may i re-iterate that the circumstances are of supreme importance in these cases

[Italy]

godfather by its most base definition is the shining example of a bastard mechanic since it will return completely falsified results but single bastard mechanics can be offset by making them counterable/announcing them properly/building the setup to facilitate them

[Geyde]

yeah
I’m not against roles like these showing up
I’m pretty sure nobody would be a fan of these showing without a lot of warnings

[orangeandblack5]

as mentioned in that very quote snipped, if people explicitly know a cult or a jester is in the setup (see: FoL) it’s not really bastard

doesn’t mean they’re fun (Jesters are ~always bad for games fme) but like if they’re known they are not bastard and if they aren’t they are

don’t really think that makes them a separate talking point, same is true for like godfathers and cop sanities and whatnot

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

also yeah i think, at least for FoL jesters are definitely bastard if you include it unannounced. same with conversion (although you don’t have to like, explicitly announce it if it’s a semi-open game, the players should be expected to read the cards but its still helpful, just not necessary)
silencers are in a “never-include” category for me but if you include them i would lump them in with jesters

[orangeandblack5]

let me pose a question

is it possible for a truly open setup to be Bastard?

[Geyde]

Intentionally misleading as a host is the gray area I was most interested in discussing

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

yea
some mechanics are okay and non-bastard if they’re announced

[YoubutWorse]

i think i like osie’s definiton more since nbow’s feels a bit more subjective and it feels like there are multiple games that coudl fit in different capabilities

@Geyde

Role Reveals (“Flips”) are guaranteed to be accurate unless the host explicitly states that they are not

(from osie’s) would this include things like janitors which can hide flips?

@Geyde

Explicitly warning players in the sign-ups or any public or in-game declaration that the host intends to or allows themselves to do any of the above still makes the game “bastard” even if the host never actually does any of it .

@Geyde

“Wisdom of the Mod” or “live balancing”: the host intentionally interferes in the game to prevent one side from winning too quickly. This is distinct from Bastard 2 in that the intentions are not to give one side a victory but to correct for a perceived design or factional/player skill imbalance. Exceptions are games that are inspired by systems where this is the norm e.g. BotF.

(from nbow’s) this seems to contradict eachother, since while you may have the ability for “live balancing” wouldn’t that also mean potentially always giving the host the ability to favor one side over another, so any game with live balancing would then be bastard because they could favor one side over another?

[Litten]

@Geyde

Bastard is when a game (due to the host, or a mechanic) does something to make some players upset, angry, feel lied to or mislead, feel like they’ve been made to look stupid, or otherwise uncomfortable. The inclusion of the 1 or more of the following will almost certainly lead to a game being received as “bastard”:

I feel like this is biased lol

[Geyde]

host can always just
break the rules

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

in theory no as long as it is, in fact, truly open. player knowledge offsets bastardization a lot