Weekly Monday Discussion #7 - Defining Bastard

[Luka]

Okay theirs my two cents
See you guys next monday* for the weekly** monday*** discussion

[Daeron]

A rolemadness game that gave every player a random role from the mafiascum role list, and allowed a chance to have any modifier from the mafiascum modifiers list, would be fine for insane cops to exist and stuff is what I mean

[katze]

[Daeron]

this is slightly offtopic but I also hate that we’ve started to embrace incredibly boring and monotonous roles like alignment cops as required and commonplace in setups rather than trying to make them interesting.

this post was made by the alignment cop haters club

[ElizaThePsycho (Willow)]

… have we

[notblackorwhite]

@Daeron

I think it’s more important we talk about mechanics and discuss if they are/aren’t bastard rather than define what bastard is in itself

I’ve seen some players claim that millers/tailors, for example, are bastard - despite this going against years of consensus that I have experienced across multiple communities. “Lies” that are common enough to be predictable and are specifically a mechanic which is accounted for when balancing are not bastard (ie, tailors and millers…)

@Geyde

Unconventional or rarely seen mechanics that require the host to deceive players in any way (e.g. Insane Cop) or a high volume of more conventional mechanics that require the host to deceive e.g. Godfather, Framer, Tailor, etc. Including mechanics from the former category without Semi-Bastard labeling is likely going to lead to the game being downgraded to Bastard.

So this section is intended to work with a list of “conventional” host-deception roles, but I’m keenly aware I am not a FoLer and can’t accurately define what it is for a community I’ve never played in and only hosted games that didn’t have any of the roles that fit this category (except like a Godfather I think?). However, even in absence of what those roles are, I still think it’s useful to say that you can still run into trouble if you have a ton of them in a setup without warning.

[Amelia]

have we really made alignment cops commonplace

[notblackorwhite]

@Luka

@Geyde

arbitrary

Disagree with this on a technical level, I understand the intent but IE: A faction kill randoming isn’t really what I would define as “bastard”. (This is just me being petty)

I think interpreting “an arbitrary decision” as inclusive of randomly assigning a compulsive action stretches credulity to the point of hard to believe it’s being made in good faith lol. The decision to assign a random target is well-reasoned, and not done purely on a whim. This is obvious. We both know this is obvious.

@Luka

@Geyde

e.g. Insane Cop

this is kinda just strictly bastard iyam, not really semi-bastard. It’s directly lying to the players and unless informed of beforehand, or having a way to knnow about it I would just define it as bastard. Especailly since it can affect the game in a large way.

I think it could fall under Bastard point 3 “generally received as extremely unfun”. Sure. It was just the first unreliable results role that I was confident FoL didn’t use lol.

@Luka

@Geyde

Godfather, Framer,

These two I would define as semi-bastard though given it requires at the very least solid play and doesn’t relegate one role to be quite frankly useless.
This is kind of just a distinction on personal vibes though. If you want to define all 3 as “bastard” I would find that okay, just think it might be going far

Again this kind of depends on what level you (FoL, collectively) want to set it at. I think a single Godfather is something no one is going to bat an eye at in a lot of communities for example. It could be better to generalize it as like “even if there are some conventional roles that kinda suck, adding too many roles that suck warrants some kind of warning”. This is basically me coming back around to salt scores, and this would be “don’t let the salt score get too high” clause lol

[Luka]

@notblackorwhite

We both know this is obvious.

yeah hence why its just me being petty lol
agree with everything said in this post though

[Arctic]

I’m mostly fine with both proposed definitions so long as for a game which contains godfathers/framers etc to be classed as standard stating alignment information may not be reliable in the OP should be required - and, speaking about the second definition here, this shouldn’t just apply to a “large number of these roles” (mostly because that just seems arbitrary), like I think it should just be the case regardless

I probably slightly prefer the first also because I don’t feel like hosts interfering with the game to prevent one side winning should ever be considered non-bastard even if it’s announced… like that just seems a bit silly to me. You’re adding a highly impactful and probably biased host interference option but saying it’s not bastard just because it’s stated in the op - where would you draw the line for something not being considered bastard if it’s stated in the OP? For me, going back to the above thing the most bastard thing I’d consider non-bastard is false alignment information so long as it is explicitly stated in the OP

[Arctic]

also kinda only tangentially related but it’s surprising to me that we don’t run more bastard games here given that botc, which is incredibly popular here, seems to fulfil quite literally every hypothetical criterion of bastardness

[Daeron]

me when gamethrowing is actively encouraged and rewarded
thank you politician

[katze]

its surprising to me because we stemmed from a community that constantly ran bastard games (fol/sfol)

[notblackorwhite]

@Arctic

I probably slightly prefer the first also because I don’t feel like hosts interfering with the game to prevent one side winning should ever be considered non-bastard even if it’s announced

If it’s announced as semi-bastard/experimental and doesn’t disallow “live balancing” then I don’t have a huge issue calling it not bastard. It’s still in that middle ground area because it could definitely piss people off even though they’re aware of it, but it’s like less likely to than the bastard things. For example, if you sign up for BotF, I think it’s stupid to call the host a bastard for doing WotM shit because that’s the game you signed up for. You’re within your right to be pissed if their wisdom is shit, but again that’s why it’s in the middle zone between full on bastard and not bastard.

@Arctic

where would you draw the line for something not being considered bastard if it’s stated in the OP?

It’s all the stuff in the bastard category: it’s still bastard even if it’s announced. Announcing is a requirement regardless. Not announcing is merely always a bastard rating.

[Geyde]

Thank you all for the responses!
We appreciate the discussion a lot

[pandora]

i’m late to this discussion but

[pandora]

it’s very funny coming at this as someone from NLM. some of you have played on NLM. godfather is a staple there and so is jester/unjester (less so recently)

[pandora]

this is a good discussion. just funny bc my first game had both and i immediately dove into a site with both as staples

[Frostwolf103]

@Geyde

Intentionally misleading as a host is the gray area I was most interested in discussing

Waves

[Geyde]

Site Bastard Setup Definitions

Bastard Setup Definitions Any Forum Mafia setup on this site run in either the Vanilla or Special queues will conform to one of these three classifications. These categories encompass a wide variety of different games, so using them as a be-all of what has been included is not recommended. Instead, these serve as warnings about what may or may not be present. These definitions do not cover forms of Bastard Modding, which exist separate to the definitions presented here. Standard Unless t…