Weekly Monday Discussion #7 - Defining Bastard

Announcements
#41

oh no totallly!

#42

I like to think that hosts breaking rules is sufficiently outside the scope of game labels and becomes just an infraction

1 Like
#43

breaking the rules out of the host’s pre established powers that be is usually a sign that the bastard game is not very good

#44

i don’t think so
really forged flips are the problem

1 Like
#45

I’m not sure
I personally interpret cleaning as accurate since it’s not creating misinformation as much as it is hiding information

3 Likes
#46

also yea

#47

yeah
also janitors are nowhere near as bad as forgeries lol

1 Like
#48

the way i view it is that bastard games have a second (hidden or not) ruleset that the host will definitively obey and everything else is fuck around and find out

2 Likes
#49

There are a lot of ideas for bastard games that completely go against nbow idea for bastard

1 Like
#50

like yeah sure the host of any game could do anything but like I think it makes little sense to account for “but what if the host violates their setup” because the Bastard label is really being applied to the setup as planned

I could very easily give somebody a wrong result in a Cop13, doesn’t make Cop13 bastard

4 Likes
#51

i dont know how but when i was reading the short description on the discord my brain short circuited and I thought fol was trying to improve diversity in the host team

1 Like
#52

anyone have thoughts on these things, too?

#53

:clueless:

#54

I would personally basically avoid ending a game early ever

#55

kind of what like litten said, i feel like this defintion describes bastard games as something that probably shouldn’t be run ever and seem more like things that are unacceptable in hosting standards (like you should have a game that is fun and does Not make players uncomfortable i feel like), because of that there isn’t really a reason to run a bastard game under NBOW’s definition because you’d never intend to, you’d always intend to run an experimental game. because of that I feel like osie’s definitons is also better because it’s has clearer differences between the 3 stages of standard, bastard-lite, and bastard while NBOW’s has experimental/standard, which can be harder to inrepret when viewing a sign-up thread

4 Likes
#56

imo if ur game is susceptible to time-based decisions swinging the outcome it was probably not well designed

1 Like
#57

I like to bring up two examples from astand games when talking about this

Mafia Reviver I feel is fine and not bastard. It’s simply not an expected town role.

In another example, the first umineko game (I believe) had an instance of light green on a card referring to another role in the game. Within the setup, there was evidence that the light green was not alignment indicative. However, that evidence was tied to a rolecard which might not flip. This was all intended but I felt at the time that it went beyond a trick into being very misleading

2 Likes
#58

yeah
because this kind of thing only happens when wolves are at parity
however, it is perfectly possible in a multiball game

#59

there are circumstances where town can have a mechanical victory but i don’t believe the host should ever one sidedly call the game for town unless it is absolutely beyond any doubt (we’re talking actions are already locked the last wolf is about to get shot dead in the streets) certain that town has zero way to lose the game

3 Likes
#60

yeah exactly
that’s not what im talkin about though