The Amazing Digital Circus Vigilante ten-er - GAME OVER, MAFIA WIN

[Rhea]

@tutuu

If you are town it would be appreciated if you leave a legacy yeah. (If thats what youre saying). I think your input is valuable

I was planning on leaving a legacy regardless. I would much prefer to not have to leave a legacy, is what I am saying.

[tutuu]

@Garfooled in what order would you place the players? In terms of townyness/scummyness

[Garfooled]

I am torn between Zug and Magnus if it were to come to final 3
I don’t want it to be Magnus
Because the chances are I’ll go through Zug’s ISO and only see opportunism and agenda
Because of their uncertainty and at times tunnel on me
When they could just be town making reads
I don’t think I ever scumread you
I would say Rhea is at the bottom of my list

[Magnus]

Rhea’s opening suspicion on Garfooled emphasises the question of their lackadaisical non-interference, which I agreed with at the time. Rhea was similarly suspicious of Bystander right off the bat and townread Leafia, Magnus, Zugzwang, Tutuu. While Rhea also suspected Pandora, Rhea did not start by confidently agreeing with that read.

@Rhea

I do not think bystander and Garfooled are likely partnered here, at least from the kind of wolfplay I would typically use in such a small game.

Given that Garfooled had been receiving votes at the time, Rhea would be disincentivised to make this comment were Bystander their partner. Rhea essentially opened with an assault on these two players in particular; and heavily leaned on Bystander more than Garfooled even if Rhea focused on Jail’s slot first. Which was in of itself reasonable, PRs often play like evils because they have additional power.

@Rhea

Garfooled feels comfortable in thread despite having been suspected in a way that somewhat counteracts my former wolfread there, enough that I would like to vote elsewhere for the time being. I would say my read is more null than a wolflean at this point.

Bystander’s first post on Garfooled was wolfy and felt like it showed a level of agenda, but the rest of her posts are acceptable enough, and I do not think I will find much productive by voting her at the moment. I would still place her in the bottom half of null in my read list.

[Garfooled]

I popped in but truth be told I’m delaying RL things
I’ll see ya guys later

[Magnus]

Just watching the thread and answering the ping, I can appreciate that.

[Rhea]

@Rhea

Garfooled feels comfortable in thread despite having been suspected in a way that somewhat counteracts my former wolfread there, enough that I would like to vote elsewhere for the time being. I would say my read is more null than a wolflean at this point.

Bystander’s first post on Garfooled was wolfy and felt like it showed a level of agenda, but the rest of her posts are acceptable enough, and I do not think I will find much productive by voting her at the moment. I would still place her in the bottom half of null in my read list.

As it may be useful, I will note that I made this comment about suspecting bystander being unproductive because she was not present at the time (if I recall correctly), as opposed to jail, who was, and I also did not think she would have alignment-indicative reactions to it. Her comments were always rather brief, I was frankly rather annoyed with her by then, and I suspected I would get into more of an argument than a useful discussion if I were to pursue her. No small part of that argument would be my own fault.

I decided it would be better for the game to avoid such an argument, and to simply come back and vote bystander by the end of the day rather than trying to pressure her for information at the time. The fact that I ultimately decided to vote Someone had to do more with simple opportunism in trying to move the wagons off players I felt were towny.

[Zugzwang]

@Rhea

@Rhea

@tutuu

If you can go shaggy ultra instinct and completely obliterate the wolf with an epic wolf case it’d be hard to not vote for them

Well, I have given the majority of my case against Garfooled. bystander treated Garfooled unusually compared to the other players around her. Garfooled treated bystander unusual compared to the other players. Both reflect what Magnus has given as bystander’s wolf meta, and Garfooled’s emotions, while somewhat present, feel like they could be borrowed from a previous towngame.

Bystander treated Garfooled differently - but Garfooled was also under pressure, and a potential D1 misexe if town.

Garfooled didn’t give a read on Bystander - they also interacted for a total of 2 posts. And Bystander did not have much content to be read on, so early.

While Bys’ push on Gar does show their wolf meta in distancing, it can also simply be a push to kill a likely misexe.

This case is not strong.

Also. Magnus, if town, has a lot of experience with Garfooled. Their read, while badly explained, is still very confident. Do you really have such faith in your own read there, that you place it above Magnus’ read?

[Zugzwang]

if it were possible
I would be tempted to suggest killing both Magnus and myself
I know this is not viable though, as if I die today, Magnus will never die in F3, and if Magnus were to die today and flip town, the same is true for me

[tutuu]

Huh? You want to get chopped? But you would never get chopped in F3 despite your wishes?

[Zugzwang]

@tutuu

Huh? You want to get chopped? But you would never get chopped in F3 despite your wishes?

I don’t want to be chopped, of course - but given that I see Magnus probably getting away, if I could just kill both of us now and lose if wrong - I would do it.

But obviously, there is no magic button for that; this isn’t Sorc17er. If Magnus died and flipped town - it would be gamethrowing to not defend myself in F3, regardless of previous reads or promises.

[Zugzwang]

@Zugzwang

but given that I see Magnus probably getting away

on this - if T!Rhea is killed today, which seems likely, w!Magnus will nightkill tutuu, leaving Me/Gar/Magnus alive. It’s not decided who Gar will vote, but given Gar’s latest post:

@Garfooled

I am torn between Zug and Magnus if it were to come to final 3
I don’t want it to be Magnus
Because the chances are I’ll go through Zug’s ISO and only see opportunism and agenda
Because of their uncertainty and at times tunnel on me
When they could just be town making reads
I don’t think I ever scumread you
I would say Rhea is at the bottom of my list

it does look like it’d be more likely me.

[Zugzwang]

tutuu where are you at on Rhea vs Magnus
like what are your reads on them rn and why

[tutuu]

Not everything Magnus says makes sense to me but they’re still my second top townread after you. Your scumread on them is the only thing that’s making me halt, otherwise I’d just have them as lock town. I don’t think they’re the type to consent orchestrating in wolf chat that prolonged abrasive interaction between them and bystander. It’s possible bystander went solo agent and did it on her own, but I still kinda feel like Magnus is less likely to do something like that with a wolf teammate due to their personality

I think they could be wrong on their Gar townread which is making me feel uneasy, but I don’t feel uneasy about Magnus being wolf and running away with the game

I think they’ve been different in their past wolf games. More conservative, passive. Felt like tip-toeing

---

Rhea is my top scumread. I don’t think she’s an obvious wolf or egregiously scummy. I don’t expect W!Rhea to ever be egregiously scummy, she seems too good for that. I think she has the profile of a mastermind who has been playing us; who located and shot the Vig on n1. To me she just seems a wolf due to PoE and due to bystander interactions. She consistantly kept bystander as her biggest scumread afaik but I don’t remember her voting bys or pushing her or voicing concerns. The townreads on Gar that I’ve received from everyone - her, Zug, Mag are influencing me to place Gar as townier than Rhea. If it wasn’t for that I’d probably have Gar as the lowest due to just simple level 0 read that less effort = wolf. Admittedly it didn’t work for Someone and pandora but it worked for bystander

[Magnus]

w!Zugzwang can’t afford not to kill me tonight if he believes Garfooled would vote him anyway. Therefore, prepping a tinfoil against me when I’m town would be functionally unhelpful in that scenario. It would be to his benefit to instead just townlock me, kill me tonight, and rely on Tutuu’s assessment instead since that would be more favourable to him. Tutuu would question it but could ultimately be expected to side with voting Garfooled given earlier testimony. Ergo, Zugzwang being Mafia would be optimised to not do this.

[The-Showrunners]

Not Voting (5): tutuu, Garfooled, Magnus, Rhea, Zugzwang

[Zugzwang]

@tutuu

I think they’ve been different in their past wolf games. More conservative, passive. Felt like tip-toeing

You’ve played only one wolfgame with Magnus, if memory serves. And different wolfgames require different strategies. Also, given this:

@Magnus

My teammates went down early in the aforementioned anonymous game, and given the mountainous format I was attempting to covertly justify my longterm survival; that was my incentive to remain quieter than usual.

I am used to being townread immediately as Mafia and I am capable of utilising such trust to promote brash agenda, although it has definitely been a while since I’ve had the opportunity to do so.

It appears that being brash and bold is the norm.

@tutuu

I don’t think they’re the type to consent orchestrating in wolf chat that prolonged abrasive interaction between them and bystander. It’s possible bystander went solo agent and did it on her own, but I still kinda feel like Magnus is less likely to do something like that with a wolf teammate due to their personality

I can see it as W!Bystander getting genuinely annoyed at W!Magnus - even if they are partnered, Magnus’ argument can be taken as offense. I do agree though that Magnus doesn’t seem to be the type to intentionally make such an interaction.

@tutuu

To me she just seems a wolf due to PoE and due to bystander interactions. She consistantly kept bystander as her biggest scumread afaik but I don’t remember her voting bys or pushing her or voicing concerns.

I do find their interactions with Bys suspicious - but they have a decent enough answer to that here:

Quote

@Rhea

@Magnus

Supported reads included Leafia (Ambivalent TR ), Tutuu (Ambivalent Scumread → #909 )
Unsupported reads included Bionic (TR), Someone (Pocket), Catbae (TR), Eliza (TR)

It goes against my principles to use meta from other games in my own arguments, but I believe it is fair game to turn your own argument against you. This supports exactly my point, no? Bystander gave a correct supported scumread and a correct supported townread, but when townreading her own partner, she only used an idle “this is pocketing me”.

@Zugzwang

Why didn’t you push Bystander D1, despite them being at the bottom of your reads? And why did you not even discuss / challenge people’s townreads on her?

There were several reasons I voted for Someone over Garfooled. First of all, I felt I had equal reasons to wolfread bystander and Someone, which was in hindsight straightforwardly false. It was a failure of analysis on my part. My read on Someone was based genuinely on nothing, while my read on bystander was at least somewhat substantiated by the awkward read on Garfooled. Secondly, I townread pandora and Garfooled and wanted to push a vote that would move the wagons away from the two of them, and because bystander had better standing among the rest of the playerlist, I did not think that push as likely to succeed.

As for why I did not discuss the reads more… frankly, it was in part just not remembering it was a point of contention, but it also felt like the reads on bystander were often based on meta which I did not have access to. I was also unsure how much my read was borne of personal frustration with bystander’s playstyle. I found bystander (as Wes) similarly abrasive in the anonymous game we played together, and was one of the only players stating I did not find her to be locktown (and she was town). I thought the conversation would be somewhat awkward and unproductive compared to just pushing Someone instead.

@Zugzwang

What do you think about Magnus? And more specifically:
– Do you believe they are unpaired from Bystander?
– Do you find their extremely confident read on Garfooled unsubstantiated (and therefore wolfy)?
–– What are your objections to their towncase on Gar (or, if you believe it, why, and who do you think is wolf now)?

Magnus is probably my second-highest wolf candidate at the moment (Garfooled > Magnus > tutuu > Zugzwang, post-nightkill), but I really don’t find them that wolfy at all. They keep having thoughts I find to be sufficiently spontaneous or against-the-grain to not come from wolf and making meta-commentary that I think would just be unnecessary to draw attention to if they were wolf. Looking so attentive to their own play is a negative. It is possible they are putting up a good wolf performance, but it is not good in the same ways that their play as Webber was good.

I find the confident read on Garfooled unsubstantiated, but not inherently wolfy. My objections to their towncase are primarily “I do not care about meta unless it comes from my own personal experience”, as that is the main basis for their case. It is hard to say much more about it. I can see where the towncase comes from as a wolf (it allows Magnus to look towny for closing up their own options, but is unlikely to result in Garfooled actually not being executed, given the general consensus), but I can also see where it comes from as town, even with w!Garfooled. I myself townread Garfooled on Day 1 and even a bit on Day 2, after all.

@Garfooled

Holy shit
I don’t think you ever vote Zug?
That’s like the equivalent of voting Orange in Splatfest, despite how hard they popped off?
At this point I’m thinking
how is it ever not just Rhea?

This feels overly confident and like it is designed to lead players into thinking I am the obvious choice for an execution. w!Garfooled requires me dead, and those are the signs of agenda I am looking for here.

@Garfooled

This feels reachy I think

This is also a strange thing to say about a player questioning you, especially one who you aren’t actively tinfoiling.

@Zugzwang

so this is pretty hard to fake

I don’t think it is difficult to fake. It could easily be a retroactive explanation to a contradiction. It took Garfooled three minutes to think up this post.

And there are these strange things that must happen in W!Rhea worlds:

@Zugzwang

• T!Magnus has a weakly substantiated and extremely confident read on Gar (W!Gar and W!Rhea)

@Zugzwang

• T!Magnus was confident they would be N1ed by #124, despite them not usually dying N1 (W!Gar, W!Rhea)

@Zugzwang

• Leafia died, despite there being much better kills for w!Rhea*, who would clearly put a lot of thought into the nightkill. (W!Rhea)

The first two are not too big of a deal (though still notable), but the third still holds a lot of weight - especially since Rhea isn’t even trying to push Magnus, when the entire point of that kill would be to frame them. Yes, there’s the argument to save it for F3 - but that doesn’t matter if Rhea dies before F3.

[tutuu]

@Zugzwang

You’ve played only one wolfgame with Magnus, if memory serves

I spectated the don’t starve game and I somewhat counted them wolfing in a botc game

@Zugzwang

but the third still holds a lot of weight - especially since Rhea isn’t even trying to push Magnus, when the entire point of that kill would be to frame them. Yes, there’s the argument to save it for F3 - but that doesn’t matter if Rhea dies before F3 .

Alright this is fair. I’m just like. There is no perfect suspect. Every time I think of a suspect I think of a convincing argument against it. So I’m just trying to go with the one that has the least … whats the word. The least. Requiring the least amount of chaos / ??? for them to be a wolf.

In my mind, every other person being wolf requires more stuff to have went ??? than Rhea

If Gar is the wolf she gave up on Day 1 and yet everyone has been simping and whiteknighting for her while she’s sitting there like “wtf”

If you are the wolf you decided that fooling us this game is the most important thing you will ever do in your life and you decided to put 100 times more effort than realistically needed and Magnus I think earlier had a decent argument that your actions as wolf don’t make sense

Magnus wolf … Okay I admit I actually can’t come up with a bigger WTF reason than Rhea wolf. It’s just my personal townread but it doesn’t seem to be thread consensus and there’s not like publicly agreed “evidence”. Huh

Is there really nothing “WTF” going on if Magnus is wolf? Was I imagining that?

[tutuu]

@tutuu

Is there really nothing “WTF” going on if Magnus is wolf? Was I imagining that?

I thought Rhea had boxed herself in by townreading Magnus but maybe I was too uncharitable since if she’s town from her pov she only has 1 shot on finding the wolf, leaving her legacy for f3, and gar is her top suspect, she doesn’t have for magnus

[tutuu]

Magnus just feels so towny to me though like damn