The Amazing Digital Circus Vigilante ten-er - GAME OVER, MAFIA WIN

[Rhea]

@Garfooled

who is your next candidate
for real though
do you see no second world?

Magnus would be my next candidate, as I have stated, but I do not find that to be a convincing world. Hence why I would be worrying.

[Garfooled]

case magnus
im curious

[Rhea]

@Garfooled

case magnus
im curious

Magnus has not had any moments that I find to be intensely towny in the same way that I find from Zugzwang and tutuu; they have not tried so hard that they have no excuse to not be dead eventually. Their push on bystander, though I have not reread it in some time, could have simply been identifying which way the wind was blowing and taking advantage of that for credibility. They feel like they sometimes spell out to thread why they are town in a way that is slightly unnatural, and many of their actions feel like they thought “what would a wolf never say here” and went to say exactly that: their “blatant agenda” when directing executions and Vigilante shots, “TMIing” Someone town at the start of Day 1, their comments on how odd the night kills were, et cetera. I can see why they would kill Leafia and then comment on it as an act of misdirection.

[Rhea]

I will share this with you all: in all my time playing mafia, I have never won any execute-or-lose scenario as town, not alive. Whenever I have been brought there, I have always misvoted or been misvoted. That is the only reason why I would be alive, after all: strong suspicion on me or bad reads of my own. I try not to let my nervousness show, but this is not familiar territory to me, and I feel it is unfair to conceal that fact from you.

[Zugzwang]

@Rhea

First of all, the way bystander expressed a long-winded and confident read on Garfooled and only Garfooled strikes me as wildly different treatment that I don’t think a person playing so casually would use against a potential villager misexecution. It reads like a post concerned with the optics of pushing Garfooled, like it knows the interaction between bystander and Garfooled specifically will be important later. (This is a point I was thinking of in my own defense: if I were a wolf, I would have known my push on bystander would be scrutinized later, so I would have improved its optics greatly.)

mmmmmmmmmmm
I sorta see this? but if Bystander intends to push Gar for a misexe, then she will care more about optics because she knows it will look bad D2

@Rhea

Second of all, the team bystander created (Rhea/Garfooled, if either is wrong, Leafia) in her dying moments was in a situation where she knew she would be going out eventually, and I think that she would have taken at least some opportunity to distance here. If she wanted to improve her own standing, she wouldn’t have suspected three villagers. If she wanted to improve her partner’s standing, she wouldn’t have suspected three villagers. I don’t see what she is going here if that list is pure.

If Bystander was trying to save themselves, they ~have to go with their reads, in order to be consistent. They wolfread Gar previously, so them must continue now.

If Bystander was in antispew, then it doesn’t matter anyway.

@Rhea

Third of all, the way Magnus acts inconsistent and jumps from read to read feels like a player who is also unconcerned with optics. As Webber, they played with great concern toward the way they would look, pushing agenda but only in a squeaky-clean kind of way. Here, Magnus was unafraid to give explicit orders to other players and swap back and forth with seemingly little prompting in a way that I find straightforwardly villagery. Wolves, in my experience, tend to pick a strategy and stick with it, making decisions based on changes in the metaphorical board-state. In a final-five or final-three situation, looking confident, looking like you have the answers, these win you favor. It doesn’t feel like Magnus is looking for that.

I might TR that but:

@Magnus

I am used to being townread immediately as Mafia and I am capable of utilising such trust to promote brash agenda, although it has definitely been a while since I’ve had the opportunity to do so.

And also, for today at least, Magnus’ read changes were forced.

[Garfooled]

@Rhea

I will share this with you all: in all my time playing mafia, I have never won any execute-or-lose scenario as town, not alive.

im getting “vote me for president” vibes
though I don’t know what that means

[Rhea]

@Garfooled

im getting “vote me for president” vibes
though I don’t know what that means

That is not my intention. Pity has no place in mafia. I wish only to express that I am inexperienced here, at least relative to my experience with other stages of a game. I do not want to be treated as if my word is gospel.

[Garfooled]

oh i misread your message
my bad

[Garfooled]

i thought you were saying the opposite

[Rhea]

Zugzwang, I find your points fair, and I can see the case for Magnus being mafia. Thank you for walking through things with me. It has broken me out of my trance a bit.

[Zugzwang]

have you seen/read the rest of my stuff on Magnus
and if so what do you think about it

[Rhea]

I still think Garfooled is more likely as a wolf. I don’t find this especially convincing:

@Zugzwang

I sorta see this? but if Bystander intends to push Gar for a misexe, then she will care more about optics because she knows it will look bad D2

The optics of a confident push for a misexecution are bad. The optics of bystander’s post, if Garfooled flipped town, were worse than a casual push for Garfooled being evil. On the other hand, a confident push for a correct execution looks much better than a casual push for a correct execution, because people are less likely to see it as opportunistic bussing.

However, reviewing through the reasons I townread Magnus has reminded me why there was so much time where I did not. They have looked very natural at times, but they also break into tones where it seems like they are saying the exact opposite of what they think a wolf would say in a way that could easily be a wolf’s mindset.

I probably need to review my reasons for townreading you and tutuu if I truly want to feel confident that I have been as thorough as this game deserves. It has been fun. I would not want to let you all down by being lazy at the end of it.

[Rhea]

@Zugzwang

have you seen/read the rest of my stuff on Magnus
and if so what do you think about it

I have read it previously. There was nothing I saw fit to comment on, and it didn’t break me out of my passive townread in the way that talking to you directly did, but that may have been confirmation bias. I should reread it to check its validity. I cannot do that immediately, but with time I will.

[Magnus]

@Garfooled

What suddenly shifted your opinion about me?
From my POV, this shift happened when I revealed that I didn’t entirely TR you

Everyone else is saying you could be evil, and Rhea suspected Bystander right off the bat in a fashion that seemed unpartnering. I ultimately needed to reevaluate because it would ultimately hurt the most if everyone sheeped my vague unexplained townlock read. In hindsight, you really had only expressed your reads upon being asked to do so without ever shaking the curb; I could expect w!you to do more given your position, but I could also question why v!you hasn’t.

[Zugzwang]

okay what.

@Magnus

Rhea suspected Bystander right off the bat in a fashion that seemed unpartnering

Given this post earlier, the kill on Leafia was a big part, if not the main reason, why Magnus had doubts on W!Rhea.

@Magnus

Zug’s acknowledgement that Rhea would have little reason to kill Leafia outside of a frame attempt has an awfully sound texture, and yet nonetheless I have better reason to townread everyone else. Rhea hasn’t been all that defensive or premeditative which doesn’t fit the picture of a framer, actually. At this point I’m only clinging to Rhea because suspecting anyone else feels uncharitable (in regards to specifically Zugzwang given the level of delicacy in his readlists and analysis) or else blatantly incorrect.

Also, Rhea’s interaction with Bystander:

• Has been in plain sight for the whole day. Why is Magnus only seeing this now?
• Has even been argued as wolfy by myself multiple times (for one example, see post 1100), and Magnus had never disputed this

[Magnus]

You’re tunnelled irrespective of your alignment. The Leafia kill was not the predominant factor in doubting Rhea’s alignment; I verbalised room for dubiousness so early as yesterday when Rhea elucidated an alternate window and I voted Bystander, as supported by the first day when I said Rhea should have been an easy slot to townread in any other world. Rhea’s verbosity and conjecture was the principle reason.

Nor is it accurate to say I’m only seeing the interaction “now”, as in this very moment, when I’d been clear for a significant portion of today that I was only continuing to suspect Rhea out of obligation.

I don’t see your point in 1100.

[Magnus]

@tutuu

Sorry if Magnus is the wolf and I didn’t listen to you Zug

If Zug is the wolf I’m not sorry, I think we all collectively got fooled and it was a collective skill issue, not a personal skill issue

Noted.

[Zugzwang]

@Magnus

Nor is it accurate to say I’m only seeing the interaction “now”, as in this very moment, when I’d been clear for a significant portion of today that I was only continuing to suspect Rhea out of obligation.

While looking through your ISO I have seen 1204, which I had forgotten about - so fair enough that you did have this read earlier.

@Magnus

I don’t see your point in 1100.

My point in 1100 is that it is suspicious to leave a wolf at the bottom of one’s reads while not actually trying to get them executed.

[Magnus]

@Zugzwang

My point in 1100 is that it is suspicious to leave a wolf at the bottom of one’s reads while not actually trying to get them executed.

You might think this because it sounds reasonable, it’s something that I would also say, but have you ever seen this from a wolf in practice (especially for the first day)? Most evils tend to leave their partners in null or scumlean at worse early on for a reason, in order to expressly avoid voting them while also providing an excuse to bus them if it becomes necessary. Leaving them at the bottom just makes it apparent to anyone who skims your ISO.

[Zugzwang]

I see the progression in your Rhea read better now
though the way you talk about it at times still seems contradictory